Mack Garrison 6/16/23 Mack Garrison 6/16/23

Meet the speakers: Macaela VanderMost

An interview with Macaela VanderMost, Founder & Executive Creative Director of Newfangled Studios. Under Macaela’s leadership, Newfangled Studios combines the strategic thinking of an agency with the craft and artistry of a production company. Whether they are creating social campaigns or developing short-form brand films, Macaela, and her team use storytelling and design as vehicles to combat stereotypes, amplify underserved communities, and move the needle forward for her clients.

Q&A hosted by Cory Livengood and Ashley Targonski.

Read time: 15min

Cory:

Hi Macaela, it’s great to see you and interview you for the Bash - we'd love to just know a little bit about what your career looked like before Newfangled. How you found yourself in the motion design space and the studio space even before you started your own, and what that journey looks like?

Macaela:

Sure. I started my journey as a video editor and I worked in reality TV. Anyone who's been a video editor knows that you're the one who ends up staying up all night long, because everything up until that point has had delays or questions around it. And I started feeling a little bit frustrated with that and thinking, well, maybe I actually want to be a producer because I could see the problems at the top. Also, I was in my early 20s. So at that point in my life, I “knew everything” and I could see that I would be a great producer. So then I pivoted to starting to become a producer, and I got a gig as a predator, so it was like a producer/editor on a reality TV show.

Cory:

I've never heard that term before. That's really great.

Macaela:

Oh, it was a thing back in the early 2000s. People were predators. Then I realized that actually it's neither producing nor editing that I want to do, it's creative direction. So it took me a couple of wrong turns to get to realize that I wanted to be a creative director. And that was because I started freelancing, I realized that TV wasn't for me and I really wanted to do advertising. And so I started freelancing at an ad agency and I would be the person in the edit suite working live with a creative director. And they had all the ideas and the vision, but they didn't have to execute every detail themselves And I was like, that's what I want to do. I want to be the ideas person. And so I pushed forward with what I knew how to do and knew how to get paid for, which was editing until I had more gigs than I could handle.

And I decided, okay, when that was the time I'm going to start my studio. So starting my studio meant, say I wasn't going to come in person anymore. Because at the time it was only in-office, and nobody took projects remotely. It just didn't happen. I said, Nope, I'm a studio now, so if you're going to hire me, I'm going to do it in my own space and I'm going to have an intern who's my assistant, and I'm going to put a TV in the room and you can come in and sit with me and this is my edit suite and you can hire me this way. And so some of the people who worked at that big ad agency thought, okay, cool. I'll hire Macaela. She's a post-house basically.

And I started getting gigs that way. I'm not a designer, but I've always had an eye for design and an ability to direct what I wanted it to look like and be able to see it in my mind's eye. At all the places that I worked, there was always a motion graphics component to the editorial work or the branding or the lower thirds or the show open and close. So that was always sort of part of what I did. And I surrounded myself with a lot of people who did that, and I would partner with them to get things done.

And then over time, and this was back in 2009, I realized, okay, if I want to start getting bigger jobs, we need to do the production as well because then I'm going to be able to do the post. So I started partnering with more people who could do production and then got one job at a time. I built it up to what it is now and was able to build it starting out with literally nothing. I didn't have any money or any equipment or anything. I just knew people and was a decent editor and can pull things in. And then I had producing chops so I could do the budget and the schedule and manage the job. And now we're 32 people and we have all the great equipment and resources and wonderfully talented people, and we handle all the way from creative; through concepting, live action, sign, animation, editing, and then the project management along the way.

Cory:

That's fantastic. So even with the live-action work, you're doing that in-house, you're not hiring out other crews and other things like that. I mean, your equipment, your studios, and your... Fairly mixed.

Macaela:

Typically, the way it works with live-action is that you would have staff producers and staff directors, and then the particular crew, you're going to hire out the right camera person for the job. The right gaffer, the person who's going to do the lighting, the hair and makeup artist, all those people are going to be freelanced. But for the most part, we have our go-to people who we've worked with over and over again. I mean those people really wouldn't be staff anywhere that you went.

Cory:

Yeah, that's similar to our experience too with our live-action, which is a little less than you guys, but yeah, it's a very similar process.

Macaela:

So you have your producers and directors in-house, and then you pull in your freelancers for the shoots.

Cory:

When you started was that the goal, going from a single person to a company?

Macaela:

Yeah, it was always that I was going to grow a studio. In fact, this is my third attempt at a studio.

Cory:

Oh wow.

Macaela:

I started Phatcaddy Productions when I was a teenager, and then I started MVM Post, and then I started Newfangled and Newfangled was the one that took off. I have always wanted to be an entrepreneur. I never thought about anything else. I never even considered anything other than entrepreneurship.

Cory:

That's great.

Macaela:

Yeah, there was really never, it never was like, oh, should I or shouldn't I? It was just like, this is what I'm going to do. And I just kept trying different angles until it happened.

Cory:

These days the inclusion and diversity components of a company have become, and I guess this is a good thing even though sometimes it has bad parts, trendy. But I wonder for you, is that always also part of the equation as far as bringing in underrepresented people as you built Newfangled in particular, the studio that made it? Or is that something that's just more of something that everyone's coming to terms with now and getting more visibility around?

Macaela:

So I'd say we started around 2011. So maybe it's just the stages of survival and what you're thinking about. But at the beginning I was just thinking about getting better at my own skills and getting jobs and partnering with the right people and getting the work done. And it wasn't really as much on my radar. And also I didn't feel very empowered to have a voice back then. And then in about 2011, I started getting a little pushier with my clients about being inclusive, specifically with casting, with the way that we drew characters, with storylines, with inclusive language, not always being ableist with your language or not always being heteronormative with your language.

But at that time I still wasn't... It's a journey like anything else. I was still at the beginning of my journey and then I put out the series Untapped, I think that was in 2016 maybe. So still far before what happened to George Floyd, when everybody realized that this is important. But at the time, that was when we first started really pushing hard beyond the LGBTQ and women or female-identifying people and really expanding it out. And we started doing a lot of pro bono work in the disability community. I think my horizons were just broadening, we were growing up a little bit as a studio. I was growing up a little bit as a human, by that time I was in my mid-30s.

And once I started to have bigger clients and more confidence that when I said something, they would listen versus always being afraid that if I pushed too hard, they were just going to go elsewhere or that I was going to come off as annoying and pushy. And it really had a lot to do with building my own personal confidence and as building the Newfangled brand, people would trust me because they trust my brand, so we started pushing harder and harder and making it more of our core identity. Untapped, I think, gave us some of that credibility.

We opened up the 3% Conference with that video, and we included some really big players from some really big companies that were part of that. And all of that was, we didn't get paid to do that. We just did that on our own time because we wanted to. I think that was really the catalyst for crystallizing it as a core value of Newfangled. But again, it was all an evolution because Newfangled wasn't started by hedge fund people, and here are the core values and our identity, what we're going after with this big business strategy. It was really like...

Cory:

How do I pay rent?

Macaela:

Yeah! I was just this dork who was obsessed with making videos and I did nothing but that for a really long time until it grew into a thing that is bigger than me.

Cory:

Well, and that's really, that's where the confidence to be able to make those, as you said, okay, now people know my brand and they know that I'm the expert and speaking as an expert on this, you get a lot less pushback I'm sure, than the annoying person you were worried about.

Macaela:

And also it's just the relationship with my clients. I mean, at this point, whether it's about DEIB or anything else, I'm very comfortable to, after the big meeting in front of everybody, call the cell phone of my client, and be like, can we offline about this? And I have that relationship with people. Whereas when you first start out, you don't and it can be scary to do that, to take a stance.

Cory:

Yeah, that's a really good point. Did you ever run into situations with clients where they were pushing back against that? Or have they all been pretty open to those conversations? How do you navigate?

Macaela:

Before 2020 it was constantly a battle.

Cory:

Interesting.

Macaela:

Even post-2020, there are times when we get a lot of the, wow, let's just do it both ways just to be sure.

Cory:

And you know that they're going to pick the other way. Right?

Macaela:

Yeah. I think typically before 2020, for the most part, the people who I was surrounded by had similar values to mine, but maybe not the passion to push it forward. And so while they wanted to see representation in the work, they didn't care enough to stick their own neck out. So I might have put something forward that maybe seemed a little risky to them in terms of will every stakeholder in the whole wide world, including middle America, be happy about this? No, let's just not take the chance. Let's just do the safer thing. So while it's not that, I don't think that anybody I was working with was a bad person or inherently racist or homophobic or any of those things, I think they just didn't care enough to take a risk and say to their boss, I stand by this and here's why. It was just easier to say, that seems a little forced. That was a line I'd get a lot. It seems a little forced.

So I would get pushback for that reason. Or they would say, let's do it with and without. So it started in early 2011 through maybe 2015. It would be a hard no. Like I'm cool, but other people might not be. So let's just be safe and take it. And then 2015 ish to maybe 2020, I get a lot of the, let's just do it both ways. I'm cool, maybe they won't be. And then from 2020 and beyond, all of a sudden it's like, hey, in the brief, let's just make sure we're being diverse. And everything is like this has to be a diverse cast. And it's like the cast is one person. I'm like, do you know what the word diverse means? Making your one character black didn't make you diverse.

Cory:

Yeah.

Macaela:

From 2020 and beyond, it was a mandate, even though they didn't know what they were talking about, and they would just call everything diverse. It just meant we don't have all white people. It's been a journey. We're all on a journey.

Cory:

Yeah. And when you get that pushback as a business owner, an entrepreneur, you don't want to say no to a contract or you've got to pay your staff and things like that. I mean, this is a delicate question but just wondering, how often do you acquiesce? Do you say, okay, we're going to do it your way, even though I know it's not the right way? Or is that something you had to do more of before and less of now?

Macaela:

I would say in that benchmark before 2015 where I became very confident in my viewpoint and not really worried if I was going to get the next gig or not.

Cory:

Yeah.

Macaela:

I would do, I mean, I went as far as editing myself. Personally, I was asked to be in the video and then they asked me to edit myself out of the video because not everybody wanted to see gay people.

Cory:

Wow!

Macaela:

So I definitely cried in the bathroom after that one.

Cory:

Yeah.

Macaela:

I would just do whatever they said because I wanted nothing more than my studio to take off. And these were big brands. Out of the gate, I was working with big brands and so I was intimidated. After 2016, I think partly because I had made this big public stink with Untapped, I just felt empowered to be like, no, I'm not doing that. And I did many times. I did take it both ways. I'll give you another just very personal example. We were doing a shoot for a company and there was a scene and it was like two parents picking up a baby out of a crib and nuzzling them. And so it was at the time I had a newborn baby.

So I volunteered my baby for the shoot and she was in the scene and I cast a lesbian couple. They weren't really a couple, but I cast them to look like a couple. And the scene is, they pick up the baby and they're kind of nuzzling the baby out. And this is when clients were remoted in, this is probably, well, I know which baby I'm talking about. So this would've been 2018. My daughter was an infant. And I get a client comment on the other end from someone who I know well and is a good person who said, Hey, I love that we're being diverse, but could we just get it another way? Could we just have a man and a woman? And I didn’t happen to have a second set of backup actors. So one of my producers who just happened to be a very good-looking guy was like, I'll do it.

And he stepped in with the more feminine looking lesbian of the couple and pretended it was their baby. And then for the whole rest of the shoot, every time that we had the lesbian couple cast for something, we'd shoot it that way and then my producer would step in and pretend to be the dad and we'd shoot it the other way. And that was kind of that mid-ground where it was “get it both ways”. I still made sure that the lesbian couple ended up in the cut, but I was riding the line during the shoot, even though I was pretty upset about it. And it was pretty awkward for my producer who knew what he was doing and knew me.

Cory:

Yeah.

Macaela:

It was pretty awkward for him. But there were a lot of things like that where it was like, I want to do this, but I'm also afraid that I'm going to get in trouble. So can you cover my butt and make sure that you just have the white straight guy in the shot too? And then I would fight the battle later in post. So sometimes it's just a matter of picking the time and place, but still getting to the same end goal of that is what ended up being in the co.

Cory:

Yeah. That's a crazy story. I'm glad that it worked out in the long run though. That's great.

Macaela:

There's just a lot of things like that. It's just very, very, very common that it's the, just get it both ways.

Cory:

And these days you have people on staff who DEIB advocate roles on staff too. And what does that role sort of entail and how does that play into the production, your client work?

Macaela:

We partner with Joy Channel who works as an extension of our staff to push our DEIB mission forward. So for diversity, they help us with qualitative and quantitative studies, so they conduct listening sessions with the staff about what any of the issues are. They do the quantitative, they keep track of our industry benchmarks and where we are so that we know, hey, we're doing good here, but we need to work on this over here.

So that's more on the diversity part. Equity is really about making sure that people have access to the tools that they need and can advance in their careers regardless of their background. And that can be anything from just something that really recently came up from a survey last week. We have some people who don't have great eyesight, and when we're screen sharing, we weren't sending out the deck in advance. We were screen-sharing the deck and sending it out after. That's an equity thing. Some people don't have great eyesight and they couldn't freaking follow along, but they felt embarrassed to say, I can't see it. So that's just an example of things that can be that simple that are about equity. Another example is when we went remote. I’m in my 40s, I have a house with a home office and a yard.

It didn't occur to me that not everybody has a private place to work. And at the time, my designers, I was like, here you go, take your workstation home. And it was two monitors and a giant tower and they were like, cool, I'll put this in the kitchen with my roommates. And so it was an equity issue that we uncovered by social listening. Where I needed to get certain people laptops so that they could go have a place to work. So things like that. That's the equity piece. Inclusion is really about how you include everybody's opinions, viewpoints in an environment where it's one very subjective, two, some people are just loudmouths on my staff, and some people are incredibly introverted. How do you make sure that everybody is included in the conversation?

And then also it’s about belonging. Inclusion is about, “Hey, we want you here for professional reasons. We value your opinion. We think you're good at what you do.” That kind of thing. Belonging is more about, we want you here because we like you, you feel like you belong. You're a part of this team. And it doesn't mean that you're a part of this team because we have a homogenous culture, but you're a part of this team because you uniquely bring something valuable. And we have people who are on the autism spectrum. We have people who are super outgoing and love to be social. We have people who came from very modest, low socioeconomic backgrounds, and we have people who went to Ivy League schools and come from generational wealth. Plus racial plus LGBTQ plus and age, how do you take all those disparities and create a culture where everyone feels like they belong?

We're still working on that, especially in a remote culture. But that was something that we needed to deal with as a studio because we used to all be in person and we used to all be pretty close, hung out, and we were kind of homogenous in that way. We might have had different genders and races, et cetera, on our staff, but ultimately we liked the same things we joked around in the same way we all lived in Boston, we went to similar colleges if not the same college. So we had all of that in common. And as we try to become a more diverse company, it's not going to be like that. And we're remote, so we have to be more intentional about the belonging aspect of it. So what they do is they do things to facilitate all of that internally.

And then for our clients, if someone comes to us with a campaign and we want to make sure that there's representation from whatever community that the campaign is targeted toward or whose story we're telling if they identify with that, they help us otherwise, they help connect us to the right people.

Cory:

Yeah, that's fantastic. I'm taking notes. It's great. I wouldn't mind learning a little bit more about your pivot to remote working too. Do you still have a physical office at all or are you fully remote at this point? And sort of how you pivoted that and the cultural aspect of that, the belonging aspect of that is something that we are struggling with, everyone's struggling with. And if you have any advice, frankly.

Macaela:

I wish I could say we've cracked the belonging aspect of it, we haven't. What I can say is that we're actively trying. But going back to when we went remote, it was probably the same story as every other studio. We sent everybody home with their big bulky machines. And we made a spreadsheet that wrote down what everyone took home.

Before that you could be remote one day a week, that was our policy. So everyone had one of those orange LaCie hard drives issued to them, and we had a VPN where you could VPN into the server and download something if you forgot it. But it was painfully slow. I mean, really, it was like if you needed an AfterEffects project file, you could grab that. But if you were trying to edit or something, definitely it wasn't going to work. So we had a little bit of infrastructure set up to be able to work from home, and that was it. Since then, we tried a whole bunch of different things that didn't work until we landed on something that works pretty well for our studio. It's robust now, but a lot of it is because we get security audits from some of our clients.

Cory:

Think of something else. Yeah.

Macaela:

Yeah.

Ashley:

That's really cool to hear that y'all have created a system where you're able to do a lot of that without it being such a huge pain point.

Macaela:

Yeah, it's really not a pain point at all anymore, but what it takes is dedicated resources. So we have two outsourced IT teams, one that is specific to the data center in Lucid Link and Iconic workflow, really the workflow for artists. And then we have another one who is specific to more general IT, making sure that our security and all of that kind of stuff is up-to-date. So we have two different IT teams, but then you need a point person, which is why we hired an operations manager.

Cory:

Yeah, that's currently me. So again, taking notes.

Macaela:

My God, you need a Kayla, that's my operations manager.

Cory:

We're getting there. I wonder a little bit too when it comes to some of the work that you're doing, is it mostly around producing packages of deliverables that you're handing to clients? Or are you pushing more into placement and strategy and some of those decision-making processes that go behind what to do with the videos that you're creating at Newfangled, or do you stay in your lane as it were?

Macaela:

No, we're very much involved upfront. We have a seat at the table with the media agency, so we don't place the media, but usually, before the media plan even comes in, we'll make recommendations based on the brief and say, oh, well, this could be really cool if we did X, Y, Z. And then once the media agency comes in, we'll usually have a phone call with them and talk about where your media plan and our creative really push one another. But we started getting credibility with that because we got this project with Google where we're creating the playbooks of how Google can best use the different social media platforms. And we're creating, they're these hundred-page decks that explain everything about the platform, how you can use it, the different ad formats where creativity and ad formats can intersect.

And then we work directly with those platforms to build them out, and then Google uses that to train their teams. So because of that project, which has been ongoing for a few years, we're the people who do that. We really have become experts in all of these different ad units. And then it ends up turning into a lot of consulting work also for Google. So for example, Google has hired another agency to do, I can't say too much about it, but a large project that drops in the summer that everyone will see when it comes out, and there's a TikTok component to it. And so any creative that's going to go on TikTok is getting run by Newfangled for notes and consultation. Then the pre-pro book is being run by us, and then we'll do the edit for it because they know that we really understand the ecosystem of TikTok and not that we're completely reinventing what they're doing, but we can nip and tuck and nudge in different directions to make it more social for us.

Breakdown of Newfangled's Google Chrome Integrated Social Campaign

Cory:

That's really interesting.

Macaela:

The understanding of the social ecosystems is our superpower I think.

Cory:

Is there any advice you might give someone who is a freelancer now who's decided to or is trying to decide to take the leap into creating a studio, making that pivot?

Macaela:

A couple of things. I guess if you're already successful, you probably have a decently large body of work. Edit it down. I don't need a portfolio with 50 examples of your work on it. Be really particular about what you put out there, have a really badass reel. I think that's super important. But probably the most important thing is the relationships. So you're only as good as the last gig that you did. If you phone it in on a project, a studio owner or a producer is going to know it, clients are going to know it, and they're going to feel it. Be willing to go slightly out of your lane. If you're an animator, I know that you know how to mock up something in Illustrator, be willing to do it, even if I've hired you for the day as an animator. And I think those are the types of things that help you go from being a successful freelancer to having a studio. Because if you do those things, and I know you're going to work hard, you're going to put in the extra effort. You're going to treat us with mutual respect and kindness. You're going to push for it to be more creative, but you're going to stay on brand, you're going to do all those things that that is what the studio owner wants.

Then trust is built. And once you have trust, I mean, that's when the relationship can take off to anything. And you have to remember that, you might be working with someone who is at such and such a job now that person is going to move up the ranks and move on in their career, and they may take you with them. So many of the most important clients that I have today were not very senior level. And they were working at an ad agency when I met them, and now they're executive creative directors at some of the world's largest brands. So it's really treating everybody with that respect, regardless of where they are, and being really honest and not taking on more than you can handle so that you can do everything really well and then let it build on itself.

Cory:

That's great. Great advice. Yeah, a lot of our clients are born out of those similar relationships. I knew this person at an agency I used to work at, or I used to work with them at this company, and they quit. And then two years later, we get a phone call from them when they're somewhere else.

Macaela:

Yep.

Cory:

Never burn the bridge.

Macaela:

Yeah, exactly.

Cory:

That's great. Just one last question, as someone who you mentioned at the top has tried to start a couple of studios and failed, frankly, but succeeded in the long run, what would you say to someone who's sort of struggling right now, someone who's new in the industry, or just hitting up against that wall, is there any advice you might give someone to get back on the horse as we mentioned earlier?

Macaela:

This might sound rough, but the truth is that this is a hard industry to break into and that the people who are successful almost make it their entire personality. You have to eat, sleep, breathe, and dream it. If the passion is not burning inside of you for it, my advice would be to take those skills and apply them to another role. If you are completely obsessed with it, like, you would rather do tutorials than hang out with friends. You can't watch anything, commercials, anything because you're thinking about “how did they make it?”

Then I think I would just say, just keep going. You continue to make yourself ready and then the door will open and you'll be ready standing in front of it, but you can't wait for the door to open to get yourself ready. So I think it's really just about knowing that level of passion. It's just an industry where you're not going to succeed unless you're completely addicted to it and have that much gas in the tank, which is why I was able to start the studio in my 20s that I probably couldn't start now.

Cory:

Well, thanks so much for taking the hour with us and talking through your career we really, really appreciate it!

Macaela:

Yeah, thank you. Bye.

Mack Garrison 6/9/23 Mack Garrison 6/9/23

Meet the speakers: BIEN

An interview with Ricardo Roberts, Executive Producer, and Hung Le, Creative Director of BIEN. Founded in 2017, BIEN pioneered a unique methodology called Inclusive Motion Design (InMoDe™) that helps brands be more profitable and effective through accurate representation on-screen and behind the scenes.

Q&A hosted by Cory Livengood.

Read time: 15min

Cory:

Good to see you both! So I'd love to hear from both of you what your careers looked like before BIEN. Where were your paths before they converged into this endeavor?

Hung:

So yeah, I started my journey in Houston, where I learned graphic design. I was in a really amazing traditional graphic design program at the University of Houston. I think my path is very relatable for a lot of people in the industry because I did not come from a very prestigious background, both in education or starting at a big studio. I started out at a local university because that's what I could pay for and learned graphic design, print design mainly. And I think upon graduation, and I think obviously all of us at that point in school, you look at everything and you get inspired by motion design. But I did not choose that if you will.

It's just that in my first job out of school, I had a few different offers either from web design and then there's a TV station, local TV station. So my professor, I remember, told me, "What do you have to lose? Even if you don't like it, you just quit six months later." So I went with her advice and I went and worked at a local CBS station and got myself familiar with what the heck is motion design and from more of a TV, network news perspective too.

So after that, I just went on and worked at a local production, live-action production house. They needed an artist, like a graphic designer or motion designer to be on staff. And the title was super enticing. "You'll be the Art Director." And I was a couple of years... Not even that, a year and a half out of school, and I'm like, "I'm going to be the Art Director."

Cory:

That's awesome.

Hung:

But I would direct myself because there's nobody else there.

Cory:

I was going to say you're the Art Director, but you're probably also the motion designer and editor, the-

Hung:

The Rotoscope artist. Yea, whatever they needed. So titles don't mean anything. So that's where I worked. And the pay bump was so great from my first job out of school living in Houston that I thought that was it. I felt good. My family is still in Houston, so there was no need for me to go anywhere. So I felt fairly settled and stayed there for, I stayed at that job for over five years. And then that's when I guess the needle rose when I felt like, I guess, I didn't have anybody to bounce ideas to. I just went to mograph.net to learn stuff from other people.

So I guess like, I'm going to want to try to freelance, and I put my portfolio online. And then at that time, mograph.net was huge. So if you wanted to do something in motion design, with AfterEffects you go to mograph.net, so that's where I was. Ricardo found me on mograph.net actually in those early days when I put my portfolio up. And then the other person who contacted me was a producer from Chicago. And I still had my full-time position at that time because I just put it up. People tell you, you don't quit your job and look for new work, right? You gotta prepare.

Hung:

So they hit me up and said, "Hey, we got this job. We need AfterEffects artists. Today's Wednesday. We want you to show up in Chicago Monday. Can you do it? Actually Sunday." And I say, "Yeah, sure, of course, I'm ready."Because to me, I think normally I would not do that to other people. If I worked for you, Cory, that would be terrible, right?

Cory:

Yeah.

Hung:

Last minute. But I think you have to understand the context is that I have been a small fish in somewhere that, at that time, if you want to do cool work, you have to be in New York, Chicago, or LA.

Hung:

So to me, at that point, I just said I could not turn this down. This was free Harvard Education waiting for me. So that's when I said, I said "Yes," and I apologized to my bosses at the time and just picked up and went. And from then on, I started freelancing, and that's when I met Ricardo on mograph.net and started working with Ricardo and Myriad Media in Raleigh on a freelance basis. And I just freelanced at different shops. Digital Kitchen was the biggest shop that I worked at. They would fly me up to Chicago, and I stayed there, worked there on commercials and things like that, for months on end.

And I also freelanced remotely for a lot of studios in New York, LA. And you have to understand that my portfolio was all oil and gas at that point. That's what the Houston portfolio was if you worked in Houston at that time until now. So my portfolio was just full of a lot of oil and gas work, I did not have any big studio, no Nike on my reel, none of that. So I felt very grateful to have the opportunity to be a freelance storyboard artist to contribute to big pitches for different studios. And I worked remotely for years until my wife and I decided to move to New York, and we moved up to New York, spent five years there working at different shops onsite and offsite, continued to work with Ricardo at Myriad and then moved to LA, and started BIEN with Ricardo in 2017. So I'll pass the story to Ricardo there.

Ricardo:

Yeah, so I actually never wanted to be a designer or be in animation, period. I wanted to be a recording engineer. So I was and am very much into hip hop, and just music in general, that has always been my creative outlet. So after I graduated from high school, I went Full Sail in Orlando. And it was funny because, A, I never thought I was going to be able to go to college. To me, it just wasn't going to happen. But ended up being able to get some loans and grants and stuff like that and was able to go.

So I was down in Orlando, I was learning audio stuff, but I was also learning video production stuff, and then also digital media stuff, which is kind of how they encompassed everything, design, and animation. And at the time, it was like DVD programming with Macromedia, all that kind of stuff. And it was in the beginning three months of school where you sort of learn everything. And I was like, "Man, why am I going to school?" Because Full Sail is expensive!

So I was like, "Why am I going to school to be an audio engineer?" And I already knew a lot of the stuff that they were teaching us. So I was thinking, "I'm going to pay all this money. I'm going to go out of school, I'm going to go to New York and get a job as an intern in some studio making $9 an hour getting coffee for DJ Premiere." And I was like, "Well, if I switch my major, I can learn how to do all this design stuff and make all this stuff and then I can apply it to my record label or whatever I want to do." So I always had an entrepreneurial mindset.

And so I just switched my major to digital media. It was a crash course in design and animation, and we learned character animation. So I was animating characters in Maya and Softimage and in 3D Studio Max. So I did that and I was like, "Yeah, 3D animation, that's going to be my career." But I quickly learned when I moved back to Raleigh, there ain't no 3D animation work happening in Raleigh…this was like 1998.

Ricardo:

So I was working at a Spanish-language newspaper. I was doing print layouts for the newspaper, and then my boss at the time said, "Hey, one of my buddies has a video production company. Why don't you go talk to him because you're not right for this job." He was looking out for me. And so I talked to these guys and it ended up being Will at Myriad Media. So we met and we hit it off. They were awesome. And they were like, "Yeah, you can come on board and do more 2D animation."

So long story short, I started working there in September of '98, and I really had to learn AfterEffects on the job. And it was really an internship for, I think I had three days a week. So I was learning AfterEffects. I was cleaning the office, I was doing whatever to become invaluable. That led to me working with them for many, many years.

Ricardo:

And I found Hung, we met online, as he mentioned earlier, found Hung, and then brought him in as a freelancer at Myriad. And that's how things really took off. That's when we met.

And then Hung said, in 2017, I wanted to get back to my roots in motion design, and I really love the idea of building a business from the ground up. So I wanted to just start over. So Hung and I joined forces, we started BIEN, and the whole idea is to do motion design, but do it through the lens of diversity and inclusion.

Cory:

Yeah, I think that they're relatable stories. I mean, at least for me, because I never studied any design or any motion or anything like that. I figured it all out after college and similarly just put work together. And then obviously Ricardo, I worked at Centerline, which is for those reading, a sort of competitive agency to the one you were at for five years and ended up leaving and starting from the ground up too. So I do think a lot of people look at these superstars who have these big brands, you mentioned your Nikes and all this stuff. But a lot of people who are in this career are starting out at these other...so I really think that both of those stories are really relatable to people.

I think that's a great segue to talk a little bit about BIEN and your methodology, the inclusive motion design. I'd love to learn a little bit about what that means as far as, from your point of view, I know that you've got a lot of resources about it on your website, which is really fantastic. So maybe talking a little bit about what BIEN is and what is the sort of positioning you're taking, the position you're taking on the inclusive motion design?

Ricardo:

So basically, when we started BIEN, we did a lot of competitive analysis and research, and I was working heavily on branding, marketing, and strategic positioning. So I knew we had to find something that made us different. There are so many studios out there that do amazing work, and Hung and I just kept going back and forth, back and forth, we can focus on this and that.
And we really just, when we drilled down to it, we realized, "Hey, we are both immigrants and we have a very different POV from most people." I'm originally from Ecuador, and so I moved to the United States. I didn't know any English, I only knew Spanish and I grew up, in what I would consider a multicultural household, and with a multicultural worldview.

And then the other part is Hung and I both have this urge to do more with our business than just commerce, and more than just creative output. For us, it's really important for us to feel like we are making some kind of a difference through our work. Because again, so many people... You can do amazing work, and the creative is so important, but also at the end of our careers, we want to look back and say, "Hey, we made a difference." It could be a small difference, but we made a difference. We want to be social activists in a way, through our work and through our business. So that's why we settled on inclusive motion design. And so for us, it's inclusive motion design, which we also call it InMoDe.

So InMoDe basically has two pillars, representation and accessibility. So for representation, that means a diverse team behind the scenes to create inclusive content on screen. So it's all about inclusive and accurate representation in the final product, through the character animation or whatever, even if it's live-action. But to us, it's really important to ensure that the behind-the-scenes team is also diverse. And that's something that we all know that our industry struggles with, like many industries. Like the Tech industry, or maybe all industries in the United States, honestly. But motion design seems to be particularly afflicted in that it's not very diverse. So we want to change that. That's our whole reason for being.

And then the second pillar is accessibility. So we know that the world's largest minority group is people with disabilities. So whenever we design, whenever we create, we create with that in mind. So that's like 15% of the world's population. So for us, it's all about design with, not for, that's kind of the whole motto. And that's a quick way to summarize what inclusive motion design is. And our "Why" as I tell everyone is we're doing this because we want to see the industry become more diverse and we want to make a difference. We want to create change, give back to our community, and we want to see more underrepresented artists in our industry and thriving and doing well.

Cory:

There's an image on your website, that I like, which is symbolic diversity versus true diversity because I think that these days, and ultimately is a good thing, diversity inclusion has become trendier. More people want to be a part of that conversation. But I think that image really sums up that a lot of people still maybe phone it in a little bit, like the symbolic versus the true.

Ricardo:

Yes.

Cory:

And so I wonder, how do you have a conversation with a client about this topic in a way that makes them want to be on board with it and not feel like they're being lectured or attacked or what have you?

Ricardo:

It's so funny, Cory, people come to us because they know that's what we focus on. That is our positioning, and that's where we have expertise. So we don't really run into client pushback. If anything, clients have pushed back and said, "Hey, we want this to be more diverse."

I thought at first we would have a lot of pushback, but honestly, I think especially since George Floyd's murder, that's when people really started to seek us out, because we are minority-owned and because inclusive motion design, or anything in the inclusive and diverse space, became more important, more sought after. We haven't had too many issues with that, honestly.

Cory:

That's excellent.

Ricardo:

Yeah.

Cory:

Yeah, so it sounds to me like a smart move and the thing that's helped is, you have positioned yourself as that's your space. And so no one's coming to you and getting surprised that you're bringing this up in a conversation, right?

Ricardo:

No, no. And from day one, we identified a category that no other studio was playing in or owning. So we knew, "Hey, we're going to create this new category and we're going to own that position in the marketplace." So you're exactly right. People come to us because they say, "Hey, they are the inclusive motion design studio." So they know from day one what we're going to focus on and what we're going to do for their brand or their company.

Cory:

I'm curious, from a production standpoint, when you're going through the normal steps of any kind of video-based project, what is different about a project that has this sort of mindset than let's say, a project that didn't before George Floyd or before all that?

Or is there a component to your engagements with clients that is education, not just production? How do you educate a client who even if they come to you and want this, they might not know how or they might be doing it the wrong way?

Ricardo:

Yeah, I mean, that's a great point. I think at the beginning of a project, we always try to find out what the strategy is. Who's the audience? Who are they trying to reach? And then we build a team based on that. So that's the whole design with a, not for, mentality. So once we have that in place, we always come to the client with various ideas, but we always try to push the envelope. And when we first started, we realized sometimes if you're doing a certain type of tech explainer and maybe there is no character animation, we realized maybe we're not going to be able to do something on the screen. So we started thinking about things behind the scenes. So giving an opportunity to an underrepresented designer or animator, or using a certain voiceover talent, like someone with disabilities, we'll use them as a voiceover talent.

It's really, honestly, a lot of behind-the-scenes things that we do. And then we tell the client and they say, "Oh, wow, I haven't thought about that. That's really interesting." But then in terms of when we do character illustration, we always do things through the lens of ethnology and just make sure that whatever we design is accurate and realistic, and it's a realistic portrayal of that particular population.

So when we put those forth in front of a client, then we talk about it, we tell them why, and we tell them, "This jaw line or this nose style comes from this region, and here's why." But in general, it's kind of a mix of both. We're telling them some things, we're also doing some things, and then showing some things.

Hung:

I think we kind of approach the client with the mentality that it's a collaboration. We have our expertise, you have yours, and we want to solve this problem together, your business problem together, while creating social impact in the process.

And social impact might not have anything to do with your product that you're trying to put out there. It's the social impact that is happening behind the scenes. I think the key thing to keep in mind is for Ricardo and I, we really hone into how tactical our process is. We don't want talking points. We don't deal with things that are just talk and not walk. It has to be very tactical. So it's built into the business. The way BIEN operates, how we operate as a company from the inside out to the production process, to pre-production. Every step of the way, we have this methodology built in, in a way that would be inclusive to the staff and also to the process and to everyone involved.

Now, I think that's the key is that it's not just a talking point to get the client to buy in, and we do it on screen to satisfy that. It's what we do behind the scenes. And I would say that at this point for us, that process is owned by everyone. The producers own it, and they come up with their own processes and their own things. So we are not the ones who are there to say, "Let's follow this structure." The structure evolves, the methodology evolves because our team evolves it, and each one using their own expertise and live experience evolves it differently.

Cory:

Yeah, that's excellent. I love the thought that the final video might just be a bunch of cool shapes and texts, and there's really not an obvious place for there to be a diverse or inclusionary system to it. But that's the veneer, it's the people who put it together. It's behind the scenes. That's great.

Hung:

Our aim, I think, as a studio, I'll call it our top-level claim, and I'm not saying we are there yet, but our top-level claim is that BIEN wants to do top-level quality work, just like many top-level studios out there. But when you look, you peel back the curtain, you find a very diverse team behind the scenes making that.

That's the way we elevate the industry, changing it one person at a time and making it better.

Ricardo:

Yeah, and that ties back into our desire, our "Why" is, we want to see the industry become more diverse. And like Hung said, tactically, we're doing all kinds of stuff. Like, we have an apprenticeship. So we wanted to initially do an internship, but we felt like that was not enough. And internships are great, but if you can't afford to not work a real job over the summer and take an internship wage, which we all know, like a stipend, you can't live off of a stipend, especially in a larger city. We thought that an apprenticeship where we can pay a living wage would be much more advantageous for someone who is just getting started in the industry. And so, instead of a shorter internship, our apprenticeship is 10 weeks and then it goes on six months after. And so we also give our apprentices, what we call a motion survival toolkit, which is Hung and my knowledge and then the studio's knowledge on all of the boring, basic business shit that new newbie designers and animators don't know when they get out of school.

Like how do you submit an invoice that has all of the correct information so you can make sure you get paid on time? How to handle a late payment? How to get work? How to email people?

Cory:

Yeah.

Ricardo:

All of these things, we basically have this toolkit and it's like, "Here, go use this." And then anytime during that six months after the apprenticeship concludes, we want you to stay in touch with us, stay in touch with your art director or your producer or Hung and I. And we give advice, we do portfolio reviews, we do all of these things just like this is about going above and beyond because that is the way they make a change.

And we do that because we identify that at our level, at the senior level, diversity is very scarce. However, at the junior level, we're seeing a lot of diversity. Like Hung and I, we also teach inclusive motion design at Hyper Island, which is a creative school based in Stockholm. And in that class, those students are extremely diverse. And I think there's maybe 65, it's 65% female.

So it's amazing. So there's this new crop of talent that's coming in, and we want to do what we can to make sure that they succeed and that they go on to flourish in our industry.

Another thing I always like to talk about, and I always tell studio owners, and I'm telling you Cory, because we think it's important for us to look at what we do as. We view ourselves as a bridge studio. So it's not about what we can do for talent, it's what we can do for that talent so they can go on and succeed in the industry. So how can we be a bridge between us to bigger and better opportunities?

So what we do is, we practice something called Double the Line. Double the Line was originally an AICP concept. AICP is the Association of Independent Commercial Producers. So they do live-action work, but they started this initiative called Double the Line. And basically what it is, is you take a line item in a project budget and you double it. And so you bring on a junior talent and they shadow a senior talent. We found out about that initiative and we've adapted it and really brought it into the fold of our process at the end.

We do that on almost every project where we can, but it's a way for us to identify that very, very junior diverse talent and give them an opportunity. So they're able to come onto a job that they would not have gotten hired for otherwise because they don't have the portfolio, they don't have the experience. But we give them that experience, we give them that portfolio piece so then they can go and they can say, "Hey, Cory, look at this thing I did at BIEN". And so it's about taking a risk. It's about extending opportunities that may not have otherwise gotten extended.

So that's why I say, man, if you guys would think about doing that, all of us together, we can be a bridge studio network so that we all have a similar mentality. And for us, it's not just about BIEN, we want to spread InMoDe throughout the industry. And these little ideas that Hung and I have been implementing, they're not that hard to put into production. It's not crazy. And when we say double the line, if you can bring someone on for an entire project, that's cool, great. But a lot of times you can't, right? The budgets are not there, we're small studios. So you can bring someone on for a certain phase. It could be for help with storyboards, it could be for one character animation if it's cel animation. So it's these little small little plays, these tactical things that we want to spread throughout the industry. And hopefully, over time, it'll make a change, make a difference.

Getty Museum – 2-Minute Time Machine Series by BIEN

Cory:

I love it. When you do those sorts of programs or when you're shadowing you in a situation like that, what does that look like? I mean, are they literally making stuff and getting paid for it by the hour, like a freelancer on the day? Or are they Zoom sharing with your artist and just watching how they do something? How hands on is that?

Ricardo:

Yeah, it's kind of both.

Hung:

That part is part of production. They will have the hands in the project and it depends on the level of skills and experience. They could be working on something smaller or larger. So they will be in the production like a freelancer, just any other freelancer, that's equity and equality or in one. So when you put that person in production, it's not so much about what they are doing on that project. They could be animating just a tiny little bird in the background, but the soft skills they are learning, being in the same job, seeing how the art director is doing that scene, seeing how other seniors, say cel animators, are doing that. They're learning from that day to day. They're learning from the process and they will be part of all those conversations with the team.

So our hope is that, we only laid out the options and people can pick that up themselves in all the soft skills while on the job. And then at the end of the job, they can put this in the portfolio and say, "I worked on the job for this X brand."

Cory:

Yeah, I think that's great. And it is really important. We do internships usually twice a year, and it varies from one to three people, depending on our needs and stuff. But it's really important that we always put interns on client work. It's not just getting the coffee or doing the cool social media stuff for Dash. I mean, we do cool social media stuff too, of course, but throughout the course of an internship, you will definitely work on the client work.

And it's similar reasoning. It's like, people need to experience a little bit of that pressure of, "This is a real project for a real person. I'm involved in this actual client work." And then after the internship they're able to say, "I worked for this brand, I worked on this video." So I do think it's a great idea and it is definitely something that we want to do more of and have always tried to make part of our workflow when it comes to junior level people, especially interns or mentors.

Hung:

Totally. And I would say that Ricardo and I would never claim that we came up with these ideas. It's more like, if you can say what is unique about our approach, it's about us really being boots on the ground practicing many things, where other people practice one or two.

Cory:

Oh, yeah. And normalizing that stuff too, just making it a normal part of the workflow…

Ricardo:

And I'll tell you, Cory, to me, why I think internships and apprenticeships, they're so powerful, but Double the Line may be even more powerful because you can bring someone on for just three days, right? But those three days of their work will certainly add value to that project, AND, they also get to see everything going on in Slack.

We work in Slack, right? And so they see all of the production stuff happening in real time and what has happened before they got there. So they already have that inside view of a big project, and then they're contributing for those three days. And then another project comes on, we can hire someone else or that same person, and we always try to vary it up, but it allows for more variety. So when you have an internship... Because as you guys know, it's a lot of work on the studios' part as well. When you have that internship or apprenticeship, it's a long commitment.

But Double the Line can be a week, it can be two weeks, it can be three days, and it can be done for copywriters, it can be done for illustrators, animators, cel animators, 3D, whatever.

Cory:

That is a really interesting point because an internship could be three months, and that does take planning. And so there's something really cool about, "Hey, we're going to drop you into this project for this week, and you're going to get to absorb as much as you can absorb and then walk away." That's really cool.

Hung:

Yeah, I would expand on that a bit to see, okay, that's something everyone can do. But what we would do is with... We think about that process and say, "What can we do to improve this process?"

Pretend, Cory, if you are new, you've never been on a production before. If you are thrown into this process, you are going to be facing this giant blob and you're going to wonder what the heck is going on. So we kind of see that coming, and what we would do is, we do a pre-call with that junior. So if we have a kickoff set for Wednesday, then a day or so before we can have a pre-call with that junior where we say, "All right, do you know what the term cel animation means? I'm just throwing out some things that are kind of technical and unique to the industry, that if you're not, you haven't been exposed to, you wouldn't know. They get to see all the materials beforehand so they can see if they have questions.

The moment you can clear that out for the junior before the big kickoff, then they will feel more inclusive, there's a sense of belonging by the time they get on with the team, because they're not that new kid on the block. They know what everyone else is talking about.

So those little nuances are what we thrive on. That's the before, and what about after? So we think about that deeply.

Ricardo:

And it's funny you mentioned that Hung. What we're trying to do in essence is fast-forward someone's career by a year or two by giving them this inside track and not just saying, you know how it is, "Any questions?" A junior's going to be like, "No." They don't want to look dumb.

Cory:

Yeah.

Ricardo:

So we're telling them like, "Hey, look like we want you to ask questions. We need you to ask questions, and we're going to tell you some things that open up the conversation." But it's really maybe what we all wish we had when we first started, is sort of, not so much a employer/employee relationship, but a mentor/mentee relationship. That's really important to us.

And then one other quick thing that we've started doing is, this is an idea that we borrowed from the tech industry. They kind of brought it to the forefront, recording diversity metrics for our studio, but also the projects that we do. So I mean, I should have said our staff and then also any freelancers that we hire. So we look at those stats after every job, and a lot of those stats suck. I'm just being very honest. A lot of the stats are not what we want them to be, even though that's our focus, and we're actively recruiting people from underrepresented populations. So we use those numbers as that's the cold hard metrics. Those are the numbers that we can't run away from. And our producers, everyone on the team has that mentality of, we want to improve these numbers. We want to move the needle on, I wouldn't say every single job, that's the hope, but it's more like on a yearly basis.

Cory:

Well, you mentioned it before, it's not just talking the talk, it's walking the walk. And that's where the data, I'm sure, comes into it, where you can actually go back and analyze that and see. You're also proudly, it seems, a decentralized sort of global group. I mean, you have staff all over the world, all over the country. I wonder if you could talk a little bit on how, was that an active decision?

Was that a COVID decision? I know you and Hung are both in LA, but a lot of people are everywhere else. And so I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that kind of mindset.

Hung:

I can touch on that first. So I think that what's unique about BIEN, when Ricardo and I came together and thought about the industry, is that we were both outsiders, right? I mean, I think I did not know what the Beatles were until I was like, I don't know, 14 or 15, because I lived in Vietnam in a post-communist world where all western media was kept out. But what that afforded me, learning design, going to industry, is that I don't see anything the same way anyone who had an education here had. So that POV, that lived experience helped me tremendously in terms of being more critical of the work we do as motion designers and studios, the kind of stuff we put out there to the world, talking down to other cultures in a visual way, and I will call that the imperialistic point of view. Because we can't escape it. It's just what we lived in, in here. It's what we learn.

So from day one, when Ricardo and I put the company together, we said, "We need diverse perspectives. We see this remote working thing..." I work remotely in Houston for all studios around the world, I mean the country. Back in the, I don't know, early 2000 or whatever, when that was not a thing, right?

So it was working, and I worked for Ricardo's company, Myriad, for years remotely. I didn't meet Ricardo until, I don't know, 10 years after I worked with them or something like that. So we knew that model worked. So from day one, we said, when we put a team together, it is not going to matter about where they are. It's more about what perspective they are going to bring into the studio. And just like anything, you work with someone freelance, at first you kind of click, you see something, you click, they like you enough, and boom, you're a team. And that's kind of how we are right now.

Cory:

How do you handle the logistical issues that come along with that when it comes to meetings or having a company culture that's sort of on the same page and things like that?

Hung:

Totally. We try to put names to everything so that it sounds legit and that it's easy to remember. So that's inclusive time zones. That's like, what does that mean? That means you have to be respectful of... If we put one of our art directors in Spain, for example, if we are going to have that art director on Delete The Project, then all meetings are going to happen at AM Pacific or whatever that is with the client. And the thing nowadays is, I don't know, I'm sure your clients too Cory, but a lot of companies you work with are global time zones.

Hung:

They deal with that daily on their end. It's like they have colleagues in the UK they talk to. So it's been normalized in a way that you just have to know that you work around these things. And then we just start to implement more asynchronous tools like recordings and stuff that you can set for people, be crystal clear on your feedback, step by step, things like that. And we've been doing it for five years and we never fail a delivery. So I think it's working out fine.

Cory:

Yeah, that's great.

Ricardo:

I'll just add to that too, just in general, our worldview, my worldview, Hung's worldview, we've always been international. That's how we think. We think globally, and so access to amazing talent around the world is something that appealed to us from day one. It's like, why limit to a certain geography? If someone's super talented and someone can bring a different POV, a different cultural nuance to a job, then that's the type of person that we want to work for or work with.

And if you think about it, the world's just getting smaller and smaller. And then COVID, like really, I mean, won't say there's no such thing, but there's almost no such thing as time zones and international barriers, because we're also used to Zooming and being connected just on various devices and via email and Slack and all that stuff. So just figuring out how to do it asynchronously, I think we've got that down pat.

But I will say there are challenges with culture. Our culture is robust and it's phenomenal and it centers around inclusive motion design and it centers around doing amazing work and telling great inclusive stories, but it is difficult. It's not the same as if you're all in the same room. So there's pros and cons, and we just try to lean into the pros.

Hung:

Also, we try to avoid the extremes for sanity's sake. Because in production, honestly, if you have someone in New Zealand, then they will say "Goodbye, have a good weekend on a Thursday." So obviously in reality, that doesn't work every time. Certain jobs you can do that, but when deadlines are looming and stuff like that. So I would say we are very global, but we are also very conscious of what makes a project realistically doable.

Cory:

Well, it goes back to being tactical, as you say. I mean, we had a project with a short timeline, and so in that sense, we were able to hire a designer in Australia to design our frames that were then ready for our animators in our morning. And so that would've worked out well from a tactical perspective despite the time zone. In fact, because of the time zones, because we could be designing while we were sleeping and animating while we were awake, essentially. And so there are always these weird little cases that pop up where you can move those pieces into place exactly how you need them, which is really cool.

Ricardo:

And you can always choose, you can look at the negative side of it or the positive side of it. If you lean into the positive, you can figure out ways to use it to your advantage.

Cory:

I'd love to hear any advice you might give someone who is thinking about moving from either a job or freelance into entrepreneurship, into starting a studio. Is there anything you might have told yourself when you were starting looking back?

Ricardo:

It's a hard question.

Hung:

Yeah, I mean, from my perspective, and this is just being really, really tactical, I would say that I would not have done it if I did not have Ricardo as a partner. Because I would say that I did not have the portfolio of a superstar in our industry who can attract a lot of talents around you and build a studio from scratch. I was grateful to have Ricardo to know the business side of it so that we could team up and make something together. I don't look at what we did as forming a company as an ego thing. It was more like a necessity.

I think that in our industry in particular, ageism is a big thing. Designers and animators, when they get to their forties, have to look at alternatives in terms of what they can learn, how fast they can learn, how they can adapt, and whether they have built up all the steps necessary to lead to their final season of their career or not.

So I think that that's kind of important to think about is, if you are young and you're thinking about entrepreneurship or owning a studio later, then you have to build all the necessary steps up to that point. And if you haven't done that, then you find yourself in a very tricky situation. So I would say it really depends on your will. The only thing I have to offer, honestly, it's just like I'm very good at making something out of nothing just because of my background. What I lived through, that's kind of my superpower in a way, not my design skills.

Ricardo:

We just make it work. And just real quick too, for any upcoming designers, I want to piggyback on Hung. Thanks for saying that, man. But I think you have to, most creatives, are like, "Oh, my work's going to sell itself." I think you have to really be prepared. If you're freelancing in particular and then want to start a studio, you have to get your portfolio, it has to be technically sound and follow best practices to get clients. And then you just have to really brush up on sales. Those two things are so important because the creative is just going to sit there because there are a million different portfolios that look as good or better. So you really have to focus on what is your positioning, what is your marketing strategy, and what is your sales strategy. Who are you? Who can you sell to? And then, you know, try to find market fit, try to find what clients would hire you, and then you try to replicate that and then expand from there.

Cory:

We really, really appreciate your taking the time to chat with us today. And it's really cool learning how the butter is made, seeing behind the scenes.

Ricardo:

Yeah, Cory, man, we're super excited I can't wait to come back to Raleigh, man. I miss it.

Cory:

Yeah, great. We're looking forward to it.

Hung:

Thank you. Bye

Mack Garrison 6/6/23 Mack Garrison 6/6/23

Takeover Tuesday with Trevor Wood

An interview with Trevor Wood: a motion designer based in Champaign-Urbana, IL.

Interviewer: Matea Losenegger.

Read time: 5min

Matea:

Thank you for giving us your time! Can you introduce yourself and what you do?

Trevor:

My name is Trevor Wood and I’m a motion designer based in Champaign-Urbana, IL. I live here with my beautiful wife and adorable rescue dog. When I’m not animating you’ll find me at one of the local open-mic nights or on the couch playing Fortnite.

Matea:

You have a vast range of video production experience. How does the work from your time with WCIA 3 compare to commercial production?

Trevor:

I still use a lot of the same processes, techniques, and software I learned while at WCIA 3. The video production pipeline is pretty similar whether it’s for a local boutique or a big clothing brand. Budgets may be different, but it all comes down to the story you want to tell and how you tell it.

Looking back, I was super lucky to get that job because I had the chance to learn a lot of different things like live camera operation, audio engineering, and video editing. I’ve even shot aerial footage from a helicopter, which was a highlight for sure. But the main thing I did was shoot and produce local TV commercials. The ones with that certain charm you can only get on local broadcast television. I loved embracing the format and its limitations, and I still try to infuse some of that charm into every project.

Matea:

What made you decide to freelance full time and what was that transition like?

Trevor:

The idea of owning my own business has always appealed to me, ever since I got my first job at a small family-owned grocery store. At one point I wanted to open my own coffee shop even though I didn’t yet drink coffee. It sounded cool to be in charge and make my own decisions. Later, in college I was able to make some extra money on the side doing graphic design and photography. When the pandemic hit I started working from home and I constantly found myself going down motion design YouTube rabbit holes. Eventually someone recommended reading the Freelance Manifesto by Joey Korenman and it felt like Joey was speaking directly to my soul. From that point on all I could think about was going freelance as a motion designer.

After making the decision to go freelance, the transition took much longer than I expected. About two years from start to finish. I was still a little rusty with motion design and had to really refine my chops. I also had no idea how to run my own business, so on my commutes I started listening to all of the podcasts from Motion Hatch, The Futur, and School of Motion. I started doing work on the side after hours and saving all of the extra money I made to create a financial cushion just in case things slowed down. Eventually I had to start turning down work because there was so much demand and that’s when I knew it was time to quit my job and go full-time. After I hit my financial goal, I went freelance in July 2022.

Matea:

You recently collaborated with Ben Marriott. What was your experience working with him and the team he pulled together?

Trevor:

Collaborating with Ben was a dream come true. He started getting big on YouTube right around the time I started pursuing a freelance career. So when he launched Master Motion Design course, I was first in line. I was chosen for the collab based on my work for the course and joined 24 other exceptional students to create the Inside an Animator’s Mind collab. Everyone who was part of the collaboration was so nice and it felt great to be part of such an amazing group. Leading up to the launch we all shared our work in a private forum and had the chance to see Ben’s fantastic intro come to life. It was awesome, and one of the biggest highs of my career so far.

Matea:

Whether it be for a passion project or for a client, what is the secret to cultivating a strong collaborative environment?

Trevor:

As artists, our work is often very personal because it’s a reflection of ourselves and our experiences. But to cultivate a strong collaborative environment it’s important to focus on what’s best for the project as a whole and not what’s best for the individual. That can look different whether you’re working with a client or on a passion project. When I’m working with a client, I try to make sure every decision I make is what’s best for the goals of the project and doesn’t just satisfy my artistic desire. If I’m working with others, I’m constantly asking myself, is this what’s best for us, or is this what’s best for me?

Other than that, just be a good human. You don’t have to be the best artist. I’m certainly not. Just be kind, friendly, and helpful. Those are the main ingredients to a strong collaborative environment.

Matea:

While it goes without saying you have some fun character work, I noticed even your text and graphic animations have a lot of charm. What's your process in giving personality to something that's not necessarily a character?

Trevor:

Even if something isn’t a character, it still has character. Giving life to things that wouldn’t have it normally is one of my favorite parts about this business. My process is iterative, which means I animate the biggest movements first, then refine with secondary motion, overshoot, and anything else that feels right. I use my hands a lot to get a better understanding of how I want the movement to feel, and I use my breath to help make the timing feel natural. Then I’ll spend as much time as possible in the graph editor to make sure every keyframe is perfect (or at least close enough).

*Shot from the School of Motion Holiday Card.*

Matea:

Where are some unexpected places you've gotten inspiration from?

Trevor:

It’s hard to pinpoint exactly where my inspiration comes from. There are so many talented artists out there that are constantly inspiring and challenging me with their work. But probably the most unexpected place I find inspiration is in restaurants. Whenever I go out to eat with my wife I have to make sure there are no TVs within my line of sight, otherwise I won’t hear a word she says to me the entire time. We cut the cord a long time ago, so I rarely see broadcast commercials. So as I’m waiting for our food to arrive, I find myself captivated by them, trying to figure out how they did the graphics, wondering which studio worked on the animation, who designed the style frames. And since the commercials aren’t targeted like most of the ads I see, I get to see animation that’s totally different than my Instagram algorithm feeds me and I find it all very inspiring (and entirely distracting).

Matea:

What is your favorite type of project to work on?

Trevor:

I love when I’m given a project with very clear brand guidelines. I enjoy the challenge of drawing within the lines and knowing the rules (and sometimes breaking them on purpose). It may sound counterintuitive, but I feel paralyzed when a project has an open brief or too much creative freedom. I like to have a bounding box to play in.

Matea:

Is there a style or type of animation you'd like to explore more?

Trevor:

I started learning Blender this year to explore the hybrid 2D/3D style. I just find the mix between those two main styles of animation very interesting. You might have line work at 12fps while something else with photo-real geometry and textures is happening in the background. The possibilities of hybrid styles in general is super exciting.

Matea:

Is there anything you're excited to share this year?

Trevor:

Some friends and I just dropped a collab we’ve been working on since the start of the year. It was a twist on the game telephone where we had to create a story while only knowing what came immediately before. The story doesn’t make much sense in the end but it’s a fun time. I’d love to do more collab projects this year — It was a great time.

Mack Garrison 6/2/23 Mack Garrison 6/2/23

Meet the speakers: Ozlem Akturk

An interview with Ozlem “Ozi” Akturk, an Annie Award-winning creator, cinematographer, and producer in stop motion and mixed media with over 15 years of experience in film and animation.

Q&A hosted by Meryn Hayes & Cory Livengood.

Read time: 15min

Meryn Hayes:

It’s great to meet you! I would love to hear a little bit about how you got into cinematography in the first place.

Ozlem Akturk:

Well, in the first place, I was always into art and also photography. When I was a teenager, I saved up money and bought my first DSLR camera. It was a Pentax 35mm SLR camera. From there, I started shooting in black and white, still photography. I loved it, but I also had a love for movies. First I tried to get into art and photography, but then I had the chance to listen to a lecture at a university when I was young and they did animation and also 16mm film workshops. That experience made me realize that there was the possibility to study film and animation.

With that knowledge, I started looking for Universities all around Germany with the focus on film and animation. I love stop motion, but it was a niche everywhere, and mostly in Germany it was more of one. I found a place in Stuttgart and went to study there. I studied film and animation. We could do everything there: animation, filming, motion control. That got me way closer to working with the right tools, that made me realize I would love to do a real stop-motion short with fellow students.

Looking back, we all thought, "Oh, this is so great," and we are great. No, looking back it's horrible. Stuttgart also has a big animation film festival, the biggest in Germany. They invited international people for lectures and there was this guy Christian De Vita who was working on Fantastic Mr. Fox as the storyboard artist. After his lecture, I went to him and asked if he had contacts or knew if there's another stop-motion feature film planned.

It was indeed, Frankenweenie. He gave me the line producer's email address. I applied, a month later he replied back and said, "Yeah, we are still in pre-production. We are interested. It's happening in London." I was in Stuttgart. "Are you interested in moving to London?" I'm like, "Hell yes!" Then that's how my journey started. I went straight into Frankenweenie and what a dream. Because of my technical background, the camera crew wanted me to be there as a trainee.

They loved what I was doing and I worked my way up to become a camera assistant. Yeah, it was two years on Frankenweenie, because again, stop motion takes such a long time, but it was magic, wonderland.

Cory Livengood:

What are some of the differences between your live-action, traditional cinematography and pivoting over to stop motion?

Ozlem Akturk:

Well, as I mentioned, stop motion takes a lot of time. Live action, you shoot, have a little discussion and then you just continue shooting. On stop motion, depending how long the scene is, a second is the animator has to shoot 24 frames. If it's animated on ones, if it's animated on twos, it's a bit faster, 12 frames. But it's time, it's actually time. And a huge amount of details you put into it. It's less forgiving when someone kicks just a bit of light. If the light bulb pops and you have to replace it, you can immediately see the change. In live action, you don't have those problems.

Cory Livengood:

Is The Tiny Chef shot on ones or twos or depends?

Ozlem Akturk:

It's mainly shot on twos. On feature films, it's mainly on ones., but they have the budgets to do it. The other thing is whenever we have motion control, we have to do it on ones, because otherwise, the camera moves frame by frame. If the animator doesn't animate the second frame, you will see that.

Cory Livengood:

I would love to know a little bit of the inspiration. What inspires you as a cinematographer in the outside world? What do you see and bring to your sets?

Ozlem Akturk:

Oh, well, it's always nature, isn't it? Although I also like to get inspired by other people’s work and art as well and think internally about how to adapt it to my scenes.

Cory Livengood:

He does live in a stump, I guess that makes sense.

Ozlem Akturk:

Yeah, nature is one of those things. We always try to get some dapples, so it looks like from the top, light is coming through. Who knows? Through plants or leaves. I'm trying to get some structure into the background, some dapples with the lights, so that has a nice wrap around it. But then again, I work on a really small set, where it's sometimes really difficult to get the lights properly in. You just have to cheat a lot or sometimes you just go with it.

The other thing I love is when you can put practicals in it. Nowadays, LEDs are so helpful and powerful despite their small size. We sometimes have...oh, I have to build my own little lights and just put it into the scene, which I also love just working with miniature.

Cory Livengood:

Yeah, that's interesting. How much overlap is there between you and the set designer and fabricators and stuff like that? It sounds like you work hand in hand.

Ozlem Akturk:

Yes, that is right. We are in such close communication. Every time, we have to. There's no way around it. Yeah, it works perfectly. Jason is amazing, he's our production designer, and he's doing such great work and is very hands-on.

Cory Livengood:

How did you end up meeting Adam Reid and Rachel Larsen and coming up with this idea for the Tiny Chef? What was the synthesis of that idea?

Ozlem Akturk:

Well, I worked with Rachel on Isle of Dogs. We became friends and then after Isle of Dogs, everyone went their own path, but on Isle of Dogs, she showed me she had that green little puppet, but she didn't know what to do with it. So that went back into a box. In 2018, I wanted to do a live-action cooking show, my own project, because I was burned out from doing jobs for other people. I was like, it's not satisfying anymore. I was like, okay, let's focus on your own project. Because I was pushing it away and I was looking for a proper kitchen location, I was on a location scout.

Then Rachel was in New Zealand doing another animation series called Kiri and Lou. She was working there as an animator, but she started on her Instagram account doing miniature food. It looked really real. That just gave me the idea. I instantly contacted her, I was like, "Girl! Let's do a stop-motion cooking show, and your character, let's call him the Tiny Chef. He's the main character."

She instantly loved it. From there, we instantly got on Facebook, social media, Instagram, and YouTube to get the name, and see if that name was available. From there, we grabbed everything, and kicked it off. I told her, "We need an apron, we need a chef's hat." She did it. The next day, she built a chef's hat, but she didn't have an apron.

Cory Livengood:

It's really blown up so quickly too, which is just really crazy.

Ozlem Akturk:

Yeah, it was crazy. It was crazy. I instantly booked the flight to New Zealand and we were like, "We're going to bloody do this," and we did it. The moment I went to New Zealand, I helped again, setting up, lighting the first kitchen set. We did a couple of clips.

Matt Hutchinson is the voice of chef and that's Rachel's sister's husband. He always did that voice and she was like, "It might fit," and it did. It's crazy how everything just came together. Adam saw what we did and he wrote to us. Rachel knew Adam from a festival. He helped us with the website and that's how we came together.

Cory Livengood:

That's crazy. The moral of that story to me just seems like putting yourself out there, meeting people, and just never letting go of those connections. Or not being so worried that something's going to happen right in the moment, but you can come back to it years later. The fact that the Tiny Chef puppet was put in a box and it was later on, here's the idea. Like you said, meeting people at a festival or on a job or whatever it might be, and just cultivating those connections with people..

Ozlem Akturk:

The other thing is you don't have to do it alone. We are surrounded by so many creative people. If you find like-minded people and you feel like you can work together, then definitely do it as a team. It makes such a big difference to go through challenges together and push you up together.

Meryn Hayes:

What do you think about the Tiny Chef that just struck everyone?

Ozlem Akturk:

We had the idea, we wanted kindness and a change, showing people should be kind and also environmentally friendly. We are wasting so much food and we use so much material. We wanted to integrate it with him, as representing him as a soul of the earth and being kind, gentle, loving animals, avoiding littering everywhere, and just being mindful towards the future and hopefully doing a great impact on kids especially, but then we got so many grownups as followers, which is so funny. But it's great. I love that it attracts every age group.

Meryn Hayes:

I also love that with the world being so chaotic at times, just a reminder that being kind and reminder that we've got one earth. All of that kindness is important, and especially instilling that at such a young age for kids, it's just so important.

Ozlem Akturk:

Yeah. That's also why he's vegan. It's not that you have to be vegan, but just to introduce it to people who don't have a clue what it means.

Cory Livengood:

It definitely normalizes being vegan or being vegetarian, which is cool. What was it like when Tiny Chef went from a social media phenomenon to television?

Ozlem Akturk:

Well, the thing is, every storyline has a truth. It's all the things we went through, it took such a long time to find a network. I say a long time but on the other hand, if you compare it to other creators, we are in a fast lane.

Normally, it takes a minimum five years until you might get a show. We had a high interest of networks, but again, it took so long and it was such back and forth. That fear. Are you going to get it or not? We thought, we just put it in and he goes through the same story. Yeah, it's actually what we lived through.

Meryn Hayes:

How did that production timelines change from when y'all were doing it on your end and then for Nickelodeon? Did that change your process at all?

Ozlem Akturk:

Oh, yeah. You have to wait for approval and that takes a long time. You see it, and on social media, we have an idea and we instantly just flip it over and make it so we are just on it. That's how we also build up the social media accounts so quickly, because we are not discussing too much. We have a brilliant idea. Everyone is laughing. Every time when we know everyone is laughing, that's the idea. We just do it.

On the TV show, you have to wait for approval and have discussions with executives in LA to get the go. You have to understand the show was shot in Manchester UK and being in the UK and working with the 8 hour time difference just made it slower too before getting an answer.

Cory Livengood:

You attracted Kristen Bell, which is really funny. I love that she's a regular on the show now and also a producer, is that correct?

Ozlem Akturk:

Yeah, she's also a producer, she's helping us. She's amazing.

*The Tiny Chef and Kristen Bell on* *S1 E1 ‘Pancakes/S’Mores’*

Cory Livengood:

Yeah, I know. It's hilarious. I was just watching before the interview. One of the episodes where they're just chatting on the phone with each other, Tiny Chef and Kristen just cracks me up. It's so funny. Did she just see it on social media and decide she wanted to be a part of that? How did that relationship form?

Ozlem Akturk:

Jackie Tohn found us first because she was obsessed with miniatures and she introduced us to Kristen Bell. Jackie Tohn is really good friends with Kristen Bell. Kristen Bell contacted us and said, "Hey, love what you're doing, and let me know if I can help you guys."

We are like, "Hell yes." We met with her. As you know, she has the production company, Dunshire Productions with Morgan Sackett and a couple of other creatives. She was saying how she could help us. We were instantly, "Yeah, all right. Let's partner up." As a person and Pro, she's amazing. No bullshit.

Cory Livengood:

Well, stop motion takes so long to do, that you don't need everything else to take so long to do. You just need to cut to the chase.

Ozlem Akturk:

But it still takes such a long time. I wish people would react quickly, but no. Especially again, when so many people are involved, you have to be patient and it's okay.

Cory Livengood:

Some of the things I really like about the cinematography of the show, you mentioned one of them, which are the practical lights that you've integrated into the sets and stuff like that. I think that's really cool.

Another thing I like is the depth of field. There are a lot of shots that have a lot of focus depth to them, which must be difficult to achieve. I don't know if there's any tips or tricks or ways of shooting that you've found or anything that allow you to achieve results that are a little bit more traditional feeling in that sense.

Ozlem Akturk:

As in live-action, you have a focus puller, second camera assistant. On this one, you have just an animator. What I do is, if it's really a difficult shot, where the character moves back and forth, then I work with the animator, because he will need to animate the depth of field too.

I will go with him through the points where he starts and ends, and a third point for the middle, I line it up on the lens, mark it up, and also show him how to do it. Because another thing is when you make a mistake and you have to redo the frame, you have to go back with the focus too. But the thing is, because it still lenses, the lens breadth in it. If you go in the wrong direction, it might jitter. I had to tell him that he goes over the point and then goes back in the right direction, so it goes in the right direction again when he rotates it.

Cory Livengood:

The attention to detail that I have to overshoot just to push it the right way so you're in the right groove to animate your focus. That's really interesting.

Ozlem Akturk:

But then again, if you have a bigger budget because, in feature films, we don't let the animator do that. Dragonframe is a stop motion program, which also can control the motion control. Then it's all automated, but again, you have to speak to the animator again to find those start and end positions and the middle point, but the difference is you have the tool which does it automatically

Another thing you do on a feature film, you block it through with everything, just a rough block just to see the focus hit the point. Then he goes for the real animation, but again, on TV stop-motion, you barely have time to block it. You have to go straight to it. Then the safest thing is the animator just does it himself. They are so good, but then again, it adds to the timing for him to finish the shot.

Cory Livengood:

Another thing you do a lot of, which is interesting, is to have Tiny Chef interact with real people in the same shot, which is really cool. I wonder, how much post-production work goes into some of those composite shots, or maybe just in the show in general when putting it together after the shoot?

Ozlem Akturk:

It all depends. The easiest is when they don't cross. That's really little post-production. It's just finding the places where it's the easiest to cut around and then getting the color to the same ratio, so you don't see the line where it's merged. The moment where they cross live-action and Chef, we will need to use a blue screen. Then, of course, that's more work for post-production to clean it up. But yeah, I love it. Just having the challenge and seeing him in the real world.

That's why we are also looking into new technology. Hopefully, who knows? Another thing is we would like to do handheld shots and hopefully build a CGI pipeline to have more and more in crowded situations and outside. We would take plates, film them, and then integrate the CGI into that scene. Hopefully, in a year, you have to always update your knowledge and technology and also implement it. Of course, we are going to keep doing what we love. Stop motion is always our first love, but we also want to push quality, and challenges and want to make sure people think he's real.

Cory Livengood"

Yeah. He is real. What do you mean?

Not only even in the world of video, but you also have books now. What's in the future for Tiny Chef, as far as just the universe goes?

Ozlem Akturk:

Well, the world is our oyster, right? It would be amazing as just said, if we can integrate more into the world and interact more with people outside being in a restaurant. Then the other thing is we would love to do a cooking game or maybe also... what would be amazing, a virtual reality game. People can be in his stump and have to do things as a chef. I don't know, that would be amazing, but continue building his universe.

Meryn Hayes:

I just hear all that and have to think through the business potential and the licensing and the contracts, and as someone who comes from a creative background, how do you navigate that side of this, which is the financials and protecting the copyright? A lot of the people that are coming to this festival, if they're freelancers, they've come into this as artists and are trying to learn the business end as they go. What advice do you have for people on the business side?

Ozlem Akturk:

On the business side. When we started, we knew we didn't want to sell the chef. We wanted to keep the rights as much as possible. That was the first mission. Without anyone agreeing to it, we weren't ready to go and contract with them. We protected our idea. We were really hard with that, but then on the other side, we had the leverage because a lot of people don't have we could build him up on social media and make a brand out of it. I think a lot of creative people struggle with that.

It's tough. They are all sharks and they want to take it away. It's sad, but it is what it is. The thing is, if you have a project where you are behind it with heart, you have to weigh in. If you take the money, you have to play with their rules. Or are you going to try it the hard way and go your own way without any financial help? Then hope you can sell merchandise and make money like that and support yourself, but that's really a long way and hard as well.

We tried that, but our problem is again stop motion, you have to see it as live-action because everything is physical. You have to build it. It's the same people we hire, you would hire for live-action to build stuff. It is expensive and we needed more investments. We said, "Okay, we need the network." That helped a lot, but again, our first mission was to protect the idea.

Meryn Hayes:

It sounds like you and Rachel and Adam had talked about that, the heart or the money, which is a very hard balance, especially early on. You need the money, but coming to the network saying, "We're keeping him, we're keeping Tiny Chef," that's great.

Ozlem Akturk:

Well, when we started, we were working on other projects and we did the extra hours at night. On the weekends, we still do weekends and nights, but anyway, we did the normal jobs or freelance jobs just to get money in. Then we focused on our free time on the Tiny Chef. We were like, we’re going to continue like that, but we're not going to sell it, because we desperately need money.

We protected it really, really well. Nickelodeon was willing to go with our needs and wishes.

Meryn Hayes:

Good for y'all. What advice do you have for someone who's just getting started or wants to get into stop motion or want to make their version of The Tiny Chef type passion project? What advice do you have for people?

Ozlem Akturk

If they want to see the professional side, I would say apply at one of the big studios, Laika or ShadowMachine ... these are in Portland. If you are in LA, then they're smaller stop-motion companies. There’s also Stoopid Buddy Stoodios, Bix Pix, and Apartment D.

I would say just write them, write to everyone. Be specific about what you like to do, but be willing to do anything when they ask you. You have to go through that process. Ask questions, a lot of questions. People are so kind, especially in stop motion ... they're amazing, seriously. Yeah, they're all chill and they will take the time and show you. Nothing to be afraid of. If you want to do it yourself, you can do that too. Nowadays, it's so easy, even with your iPhone, you can connect it with Dragonframe and take stop frames. You don't even need a fancy camera. Then just an easy light setup. Again, whatever you have in the house, if it's like a desk lamp or something, use that just to get a feel about how it works. If you want to become an animator or building stuff, just do it.

Again, there are so many tutorials on YouTube. You can find so much if you Google, it's ridiculous. But if you want to have professional insights, you should try to apply at those companies. Get the connection and networking game on.

Meryn Hayes:

I love hearing how welcoming the community is. I think it's really special that in these communities, people are so willing to help other people who are trying to get into it or offer advice. I think it's just one of the reasons why we do the Bash, is to let the community have a point where they can meet and talk and ask questions and get advice and help. I just love hearing that the stop-motion community is as welcoming.

Ozlem Akturk:

Yeah, it is. Everyone's so nice. It's unbelievable. I never worked in a kinder environment.

Cory Livengood:

This has been a great conversation. We really, really appreciate it.

Ozlem Akturk:

Oh, I appreciate you guys. Again, respect what you guys are doing and it is such a pleasure meeting you.

Cory Livengood:

Yeah, likewise.

Meryn Hayes:

Really excited to see you in July!

Mack Garrison 5/25/23 Mack Garrison 5/25/23

Meet the speakers: Kevin Dart

An interview with Kevin Dart: CEO and Founder of Chromosphere, a boutique animation studio in Los Angeles that specializes in design and creative storytelling with technology.

Q&A hosted by Mack Garrison.

Read time: 15min

Mack:

Hey Kevin. Nice to meet you.

Kevin:

Nice to meet you too!

Mack:

I'd love to know a little bit of backstory. How'd you get into motion design? What was the draw to the animation field, and then maybe a little bit of that path that led you ultimately to starting Chromosphere?

Kevin:

I switched careers after graduating from college, because I originally wanted to work in video games. I went to a school called DigiPen up in Redmond, Washington, originally in the engineering program, because I wanted to program games. I think by the third semester, I was in calculus three or something and I was just like, this just isn't what I wanted. It was too heavy on physics and stuff for me, but I always had a real passion for art and design too. I actually was more interested in graphic design, especially in high school. I always drew, but I also spent a lot of time designing websites. I was really into just the worldwide web of the nineties when I was growing up. I taught myself HTML and Perl and various types of web coding languages, so I could build my own websites.

That was my real intro into art, was through web design and graphic design. When I was having that third semester crisis, there were only two programs at DigiPen; engineering and animation. I was like, "Well." I always loved animation too. Maybe I could get into it. I threw together a portfolio and they let me switch over to the other program, and then I did that. It was mainly focused on 3D art, learning how to model and animate in 3D.

I graduated with a degree in 3D animation and then went to work in video games as a character modeler. I did that for almost three years. And then I had another existential crisis... I think I had some awakening or something, when I saw Samurai Jack. I think that actually came out when I was in school, but it sparked something inside of me where I was like, "I think maybe I actually do want to work in animation." Something about it was just so ... it was an epiphany for me. That bug never left me and it kept growing.

At some point, I made a trip down to LA and showed my portfolio around at an event I was at, and met this amazing recruiter from Disney named Dawn Rivera, who's still working at a lot of different studios today. She was like, "I think you really might have something here." She set up this whirlwind bunch of meetings for me at some studios around LA, and none of them went anywhere, but being as naive as I was, my first time in LA and going to these big studios, I was like, "Well, I guess I'm in."

Mack:

Ha - Nice.

Kevin:

I pretty much quit my job a few weeks after that, thinking I was just going to go start working in animation and that wasn't what happened. I think I ended up being unemployed for two or more years or something, trying to figure out how to get into animation and realizing that having a meeting at a studio didn't mean that I was actually going to have a job there.

Mack:

How old were you at this time? I'm assuming this is Samurai Jack, so I'm thinking early 2000s, something like that.

Kevin:

Yeah. I was in my twenties, early twenties. I was probably more naive than I should have been at that age. I think at the time also, there was a really huge geographical disconnect between animation and being centralized in LA. It felt to me, being in the Seattle area, it was basically impossible. There were just no options to work in animation. At some point, I finally made the move down to LA, I think it was 2007 or so, which was actually spurred because my at the time, girlfriend and eventually wife, were long distance dating. She was living in LA and I was up in Seattle. It provided the impetus I needed to finally move down to LA. Then once I got down here, things finally started connecting because I was in the area and I was able to actually go to studios I was talking to and meet with them.

One of the first things that happened was, I got an internship at Pixar in the visual development program in 2007, which was really cool and surreal, because that was a place I'd wanted to work at for such a long time. Then I got to just spend a summer there, learning from all these guys that I only knew from captions and art of books and stuff. Then weirdly from there, I started working a lot for European studios like Cartoon Network Europe.

Mack:

Interesting. Just committing to being there, you were able to meet with some of these studios, you got in at Pixar. The internship itself for the digital development stuff, was that a one-year gig or just a few months?

Kevin:

Yeah. It was just a summer internship. It was weird because I was a lot older than everyone else in the program. Everyone else was still, they were coming out of school or were still in school. I had been out for a few years at that point, but everyone accepted me. It was really nice, nice little camaraderie, but I did feel strange about it. They had us do our own individual projects, where we would get mentored by people. I was mentored by Harley Jessup, who was already one of my idols from just seeing his work on Monsters Inc and stuff like that.

Also just, he's got an incredible eye for graphic design, so we really matched up perfectly. I think he really recognized that I had that interest and was able to guide me on that, and just one of the kindest, most open people ever. It was just a really cool experience to be able to work with him and have that role model, someone who's so open and so interested in art in general, and particularly graphic design, to just be really encouraging and inspiring.

Mack:

Especially given his ... I'm just looking at his IMDB here Ratatouille, Cars 2, Presto, the Good Dinosaur, Coco, and then the upcoming feature Elio. Monsters Inc, of course. What an immense source of talent, and you're just a sponge absorbing all of it. What an amazing opportunity.

Kevin:

I'm pretty sure it was Harley who encouraged me to do this, was to start gathering photo references and just putting it up all around me. That was something that just really stuck with me. I don't always do it actually physically printing stuff out and hanging it up anymore, but I make a big point of always starting every project with a lot of research and gathering a reference and creating boards that we can look at and just be like, "Oh yeah, this is where we're going," and just relying a lot on that research process that he talked about. He was also really big on... I don't feel like I needed a lot of prodding to also be into this, but I think he encouraged me to really focus on presentation.

That's something that's really stuck with me too. The way that you present your work a lot of times, is just as important as the work itself. If you put something out there and you're like, "Whatever," you just throw it out and it's got some messy type or it's printed badly or whatever, it really betrays the quality of what you were trying to do. That's really bled into everything that we do. I spend so much time curating our website, for instance, for Chromosphere, really getting everything just right. I want our work to be presented in a way that I feel is fitting of what we've done.

Mack:

After the internship you said you went to Cartoon Network?

Kevin:

Yeah. I just went back to LA after the internship and then started getting work from Europe, from Cartoon Network Europe first, from a director named Pete Candeland, who was there. And Pete Candeland directed all the early Gorillaz music videos, and those Rock Band promos, the Beatles Rock Band promo and that stuff. He was very iconic in that. Pete, at the time, was working at Cartoon Network Europe, developing a pilot for a show, and they asked me to do some background designs for it.

Then weirdly, they also had hired at Cartoon Network Europe, this French compositor named Stéphane Coëdel, who ended up being pretty much my most long-term conspirator and collaborator in animation. When I started on the project, they told me, "There's this French guy here. He really likes your work and he's wondering if you would be interested in collaborating on these title cards," because they were making title cards for the show and they wanted to do this old monster movie type look to the cards. They asked me to paint up a card like that. I was like, "Okay." I did something where it was a dock scene with these squid tentacles coming out or something and some horror movie type font on it. I sent it off, and then a few days later they sent me back a movie that Stéphane had done, where he had ... I was completely unfamiliar at the time with After Effects as an animation tool, and what you could really do with it. They sent me back this movie and he had taken all the layers from my Photoshop file and animated all these tentacles moving around and appeared in smoke and all this stuff. There was a little parallaxing. The whole thing just came to life and my mind just exploded. I was like, "What?" It felt like he had taken this little painting I had done and just brought it to life, created a whole world out of it. That just planted this whole seed of, "I want to do more of this." I love this process of painting and then working with someone to bring it all to life in a way that I'd never really considered.

I still thought of animation as just drawing in frames. I didn't think there was a whole other level to what could be done with 2D animation and compositing. It just really opened my mind to that. Then the next job I did was also with Pete, but he had gone back to Passion Pictures and he was directing a promo for the 2008 Beijing Olympics on BBC. For that one, they asked me to come over to London and just work on it for a month or so, doing a color script and background paintings for it.

One of the funniest experiences was they just threw me in the room. At the time, Passion was in this ... I don't want to say dilapidated, but it was a very old building with lots of breezes coming through. It was freezing in there, and the floors were all creaky and there was just this room and they're like, "All right, here's the guys. This is so-and-so and this person, and here's a computer for you to work at," and I was like, "Okay." I just started working and there was this guy that they had all introduced to me as Bob, sitting over here. I was like, "Okay, hey Bob." He was a friendly Canadian guy, and it wasn't until a week later where I think I was about to go home for the night and I was going over to look at what he was doing, and he was animating on paper, flipping these pages, and I was looking at it and I was like, "Wow."

First of all, I'd never been around people animating traditionally. All of my training had been completely digital and all of my experiences were totally digital. I was looking at it and I was like, "Wow man, that's really good. It reminds me of Robert Valley's stuff," and he was like, "I am Robert Valley." I was like, "What? They've just been calling you Bob this whole time." I didn't know.

Then you start finding out who everyone else in the room is, and it's like, "Okay, this is the whole team of people who've done all these Gorillaz videos and all this stuff, and why am I here?" I didn't feel like I deserved to be there, but I still tried to soak it all up as much as possible. I remember one time, Pete invited me to sit in on a review session where he was going through all the latest animation and seeing how it was all coming together.

That was such a momentous thing for me, that this person would just bring me into that process and let me observe how it was being done. I was like, "Wow, I want to do this. I want to do this exact same thing. I want to make animation this way." I just wasn't aware of other people who were doing it at that time. I haven't really traced the history, but I feel like Pete and those guys on the Gorillaz videos were one of the main originators of the whole After Effects and motion graphic style that exploded in the years after that.

I just loved the process, just getting in there and just working with all of the elements. It was also raw and immediate. The person who's animating it is just in this room over here. Then the guys, they scan it, this guy's compositing it. I would see at Cartoon Network in LA years later, the way they did animation was: you have a pre-production team in LA who does a lot of designs and storyboards, and then it gets sent off to Korea or somewhere else, and then a few weeks later you get back a cartoon.

This process was just so opposite of that. It was a team of ... it felt like maybe it couldn't have been more than 12 or 15 people coming together and using their resources to, from start to finish, create this incredible piece of animation. I think I modeled everything I've done with Chromosphere and everything off of that experience, small teams, everyone knows, everyone's really good at what they're doing and really good at improvising and coming up with quick solutions and just working together to make stuff in a very quick and almost improvisational way.

That whole period from 2007 to 2009 was really characterized by these very life-shaping experiences like that. Then when I came back to LA, I did end up getting a job doing background painting at Cartoon Network, on a show that Genndy Tartakovsky was making. Genndy's the guy that did Samurai Jack.

*“June” is the story of a woman reconnected by ridesharing*

Mack:

Yeah, phenomenal.

Kevin:

It was like jumping from one person I idolized to the next. If I could organize all of my inspirations in some way, Genndy and Samurai Jack, and all that stuff would just be so far at the top of what I wanted to do. Then Scott Wills, who was the art director for Samurai Jack was also on this show.

It was basically me, Scott, and one other background painter, who was Kristen Lester, who's actually now a director at Pixar. It was just another crazy experience where it's like this guy who's an industry veteran, has these two complete noobs that he's taken under his wing, to teach how to background paint. Scott is a traditional painter by trade. That's how he learned. He started on Ren and Stimpy. His story's pretty crazy because one of his first gigs was blowing up album covers for Tower Records stores in LA during the eighties, because they didn't have the technology to just scan stuff and blow it up, so they would hire him to just paint a bigger version of an album cover.

He learned a lot of painting through that, and then got hired on Ren and Stimpy and did background painting for that, and eventually found his way to working with Genndy on Samurai Jack.

What I was really astonished by, was that it seemed like he hadn't skipped a beat from being a very accomplished traditional painter to just taking all of his knowledge and translating it effortlessly into digital painting. We were painting digitally on this show. He was doing it just how he would do his regular painting, no problem. It wasn't like he was like, "Ah, I'm not going to work on computers, these newfangled machines," or whatever. He just did it. Then he showed us exactly how he did it. He broke down the process into this very understandable thing, where even Kristen and I, just being complete novices at this, could understand how he was approaching each of these paintings.

It was just a very ordered, understandable and reproducible way of working, that I still paint that way now. It was just such a great way of starting with blocking in simple shapes and then you add light and then shadow. He would group all of his layers in a very organized way, like someone who'd been painting digitally all their life. He just had complete mastery over how to work in Photoshop in a way that was just very, very thorough and very organized. I think for me, it was especially cool because at the time I had no real process to speak of.

I felt like every time I would paint something, it was a totally new approach, that I was just fumbling through to get to some result, hopefully. Then this was the most incredible tool set because it was like, "Well, now I can always make something because I have this process I can rely on. I don't have to make a bunch of mistakes and then end up here. Hopefully I can follow these steps so I'll always end up having a painting at the end." It was ideal. It was an ideal process, especially for that job where you do have to crank through a certain number of paintings every week.

It was a whirlwind at that point, because I sort of started two different careers, where I was working at studios in LA doing either vis dev or art directing stuff, but I was also trying to keep alive the dream of what I had seen Pete doing in London in 2008, making short films and doing it in this way that I was really inspired by. Stéphane and I, at that point, we'd been making films together. We were doing some of the early Yuki 7 stuff at the time, and then eventually started getting gigs co-directing these things. We did this little film for Persol sunglasses, but all of this was happening simultaneously. I was always working two or three jobs at the same time for several years.

It went on that way til 2014 or something. I think my wife and I were having dinner one night and I was just like, "I only want to be doing this one part. I want to be doing all the fun films and stuff, and I want a studio where I can" It just felt like I was in this place where I had this amazing fortune of learning all these different things. I learned how TV animation worked. I'd learned how feature animation worked. I learned how commercial animation worked. I'd even learned how video games worked, how they were made.

I was like, "I want to take all of this," Take all my friends I've met, these incredible people like Stéph or the various artists I was working with at Cartoon Network, like Jasmin Lai or Tiffany Ford, all these people, and form some place where we could do projects that just didn't follow any way that any of the studios in LA were doing things. I loved all the shows that I worked on, like Steven Universe, or Power Puff Girls, or Peabody and Sherman or whatever, but I didn't want to do that process. I wanted to be in that situation, what I had seen Pete doing, where it's a small team of people just creating something really cool together.

Mack:

What was the next step of, "I want to do this, so I'm just going to start a studio."

Kevin:

Luckily, my wife Elizabeth Ito (Creator of City of Ghosts) was just really supportive. We talked to our therapist about it too. It was a big topic. It was a huge decision. It felt like I'm talking about basically just leaving this industry that I worked so hard for so many years to get into, to just strike out on my own now. I think something I was struggling with a lot of the time was, all I ever wanted, if I rewound 10 years ago or so, was to work with all of these people that I've now worked with. Now that I've done it, I feel like maybe that's not all I want. Maybe I want to go a whole step further and build something on my own that was just different from everything else, in some way that was hard to define at the time.

I just started taking the steps really slowly, first just registering a business name. At first, it was just a small freelance business, where I felt like a snake oil salesman type guy for the first two years. Basically, what happened is anytime someone would write to me saying, "Oh, are you available for work on this thing?," I'd be like, "Yeah, maybe, but the thing is I'm actually running a studio now," and I had no studio. I was like, "I have a studio, so maybe." If they were looking for an art director for a movie, I'd be like, "Well, would you be interested in talking about hiring my studio to do all of the vis dev for your movie?," or whatever. Most people were like, "Is this a real thing? Can you actually do that?"

Mack:

Like… "Can you deliver on this? Who are you?" haha.

Kevin:

Yeah. Most people just wouldn't respond because it felt like a crazy proposition to them. One of them actually bit, and it was actually for a movie that just came out recently, but this was back in 2014. There's a movie that came out recently called Paws of Fury. I pitched the directors of the movie the idea of hiring my fledgling studio to do the visual development for the movie, and they agreed. We worked on it for maybe nine months to a year or so. I just built a little team, just all freelance, of my friends, to create all the designs for this movie.

I just did that on the side as I was also still working full-time as an art director at Dreamworks. Basically, that created enough of a seed fund for me to take the next step with Chromosphere, with renting an office space. I built up enough where I could rent an office space for a year, so if we just go under and I make no money whatsoever, I've got enough in the bank to pay for the office for at least a year.

We also got a job designing a little short segment (at the time) for the new Cosmos series. It was a three to four minute little short film about ancient Mesopotamia and how they basically went away because of drought.

*Frame from the Ancient Mesopotamia shot on the Cosmos.*

Mack:

What's really funny to me about this is even just how cavalier you were about how it came up, right? You're pitching your studio and you're not getting responses or anything, and then Paws of Fury is like, "Yeah, sure." Did it catch you off-guard too, since that was the first one where you just like, "Oh, shit. Okay, cool. I guess this is happening."?

Kevin:

Yeah. I was just completely just winging it. I didn't know. I don't think I ever even put together a full budget for it or anything. They wanted to know how much it would cost per week, and I just asked everyone what their rates were and added it up, and then added 10% to that or something, and was like, "I guess this is our rate," and they're like, "Okay." Then that 10% over the course of a year, added up to enough for me to rent a studio, so I was pretty proud of that.

Mack:

Amazing!

Kevin:

We don't do stuff that way anymore. It's been a process like that. There was no one around to show me how to do any of that part of it, any of the business management. That was one aspect where I never had a role model, for better or for worse, who could bring me in and show me, "This is how you run a studio."That was just completely trial and error. It feels like to this day, it's still trial and error sometimes. You still keep finding these situations where it's like, "Wow, we've never done that before." These things just come up. It just gets more and more complicated as you get into it, from running just a small design production, to working on a Netflix series or whatever it is. Things just get a lot more complicated. We try to ask questions and we make a lot of mistakes. I don't know. We're still going somehow.

Mack:

You got Chromosphere. It launches. Was there much of a plan with it initially? Had you given that much thought? Or was it still just seeing what developed ultimately?

Kevin:

That period was really tough. There were a bunch of people I called up for advice around that time. I remember one of them was Ken Duncan, who's a veteran Disney animator, who has his own studio in Pasadena called Duncan Studios. I guess I shouldn't have said there were no role models, because just not where I was actually working with them and day-to-day seeing what was happening, but Ken was very open. We went to lunch and he told me about his experiences and was very clear. I just had lunch with them a few weeks back and caught up again, because we've kept in touch over the years. And I was like, "Man, some of the stuff you told me at that first lunch we had, I still think about it all the time."

It was just things like, "What are you going to do if it gets down to it where you just can't pay the bills or something?" I was like, "I don't really know." He was like, "I've been through some hard times." He told me that he started a studio in 2007 right before the big financial crisis. Suddenly, everything was in turmoil and he was like, "It was pretty dark." He was like, "It's a whole different world, having that responsibility on your shoulders."

I also met up with Chris Prynoski and Ben Kalina from Titmouse, and they told me their experiences. I think the main thing I was asking them was, "How do you know when it's real?" From the point where you have an idea to start a studio and even when you rent a place, how do you know it's finally going to just keep going?" They were like, "I don't know." They just had that look in their eyes that now I recognize. Every year I'm so thankful that it's still going. They were making a thing of it that I've been a full-time employee of Chromosphere since 2016. It's my main thing. I don't have to do anything else. I never thought that would be a reality.

Mack:

I think it just shows that maybe we're all in it together, but we're also trying to work it out ourselves.

Kevin:

It was also funny about catching up with Ken Duncan again. We've talked twice I think, during the pandemic. He was like, "Remember when I told you about how stuff gets crazy?," and I was like, "Yeah," because now we're both in it simultaneously. A lot of people I talked to at big studios seem like they've moved past it, but running a small studio through the pandemic was ... it got hairy. I felt like I experienced what Ken had warned me was going to happen at some point. Our entire business model just basically completely changed during the pandemic, because so many TV productions shut down and TV work had become a real backbone of our studio leading up to the pandemic.

We finished up the shows we were working on before the Pandemic in the first six to nine months or whatever, and then never got another TV show after that. I kept thinking it was just going to come back, and it just never did. We had to pivot completely, 180 degrees, to just all this other stuff that we're doing now, which has been really fun and everything, but there were those moments where I was like, "I don't know what we're going to do." I felt like I was flying an airplane where you see the fuel running out and you see the ground approaching and you're just like, "I don't know if we're going to make it."

Mack:

What did you do?

Kevin:

We looked at everything we possibly could. We called up everyone we'd ever worked with. The things that came out of it that were real savior moments for us, were starting to work with Unreal and Epic. We started applying for and getting these mega grants from them to do work in real time. We started creating short films with the Unreal Engine, which started to financially support us for a good while, and then just started picking up any work we could. It was doing some animations for social media, doing some 3D model designs for this game or whatever. There's been no pattern to it, but also it's been all good. It's all been very fun, smaller stuff, documentary animation, just things like that. We still do development work for some people, but it's primarily been the Unreal stuff, and then pairing that with just adding up all these small projects to make up the rest of it, essentially.

*Frame from Mall Stories - a documentary style short.*

Mack:

Well, it's interesting because I remember following y'all's work when it first started coming out because it looked really good. I will say that it feels like you've got way more range now, and maybe than you ever had before, just through the experience of doing all these different things. It has to make you a bit excited about the future, because I'm sure when you started the company, you had this vision of this little niche that you were going to fill. It's blossomed into becoming more than that. I'd love to hear some of your ideas on where are you guys now, staff wise, what size are you and have you thought, I don't know, what's next for Chromosphere as we look ahead over the next 10 years or so?

Kevin:

We're a lot smaller now. Before the Pandemic, I think we were around 30 or so, and now we're around 10 or 12 most of the time. The studio rebalanced itself, because we got a lot bigger, because we had had a huge design team to work on all the shows that we were doing. Now, it's this very small team, but we have a lead in every area we need, for 3D, or animation, or design or whatever. It's funny. It feels like just back to the start again. In some ways it's a comfortable spot for me to be in, because it is like I've been through this before. I remember when we first started the studio and it was just a couple of us and we were just trying out new stuff.

In a lot of ways, the stuff that we're doing in Unreal feels like that moment when I first saw Stéphane comp that little poster for me a long time ago. It's this whole new way of working that I've gotten so excited about, just creating things in real time and being really experimental with it. It's already led to new stuff. We did the opening titles for the Beavis and Butt-head movie that came out last year. We did that all in Unreal.

Mack:

I had no idea.

Kevin:

We never would've known that if we hadn't gotten into this situation in the pandemic and found our way to Unreal, and then this strange job comes up out of nowhere and we're like, "We could do that. We know Unreal." We're pushing really hard into more of our original projects. We're pushing hard into educational based projects. We've started applying for grants, like federal grants and educational space for projects we're developing. We've learned a lot about that during the pandemic too. We're working with educators and people to figure out how we can use art, just for better purposes.

It's become a huge passion of ours in the studio. Everyone feels very strongly about it. We want to find a way to use what we're doing for education in some way. We've made that a big initiative at the studio. We're just exploring everything. We're looking at creating 3D assets to sell in the Unreal marketplace, so other people can build things with our stuff. It's honestly just super fun. It's so new again, which is just great. We never wanted to get to a place where we're just a factory, just churning things out and anything like that. All these circumstances have forced us into a place where everything is just new again.

Mack:

Kevin, this was fantastic, and super excited about your talk this summer. Have a good weekend, and we'll be in touch soon..

Kevin:

Yeah, you too. See you guys.

Mack Garrison 5/23/23 Mack Garrison 5/23/23

Takeover Tuesday with Dylan Casano

An interview with Dylan Casano: a motion designer/illustrator from Oakland, California who has over 8 years experience in animation specializing in 2D After Effects Animation, including motion graphics, character animation, and compositing.

Interviewer: Bella Alfonsi.

Read time: 5min

Bella:

Hi Dylan! I'll never stop saying it, your Earth Day 2020 animation is glorious and one of my favorites of all time. But for those who are unfamiliar with you/your work, please introduce yourself!

Dylan:

Haha, thank you! I'm a human 2D Animator and Designer currently based in LA! My personal work tends to be colorful and graphic, and I'm usually breathing life into something that shouldn't be alive, like a taco, a bra, or the Earth.

I think putting sad faces on random inanimate items is hilarious, and you can't tell me any different.

I'm always trying to think of new ways to use After Effects in funky ways to get new looks! I believe every kind of illustration style can be animated, just comes down to how you do it, and how much sleep you want.

I'm primarily an After Effects Animator, with a propensity for adding character to things. I've been picking up Cel animation in the last 6 years because drawing can just make characters waaaay more expressive. Through a Mograph Mentor course with Henrique Barone, I discovered that Cel is very similar to how you would animate something in After Effects, but you’re just drawing it—a lot.

Bella:

How did you find yourself in the motion design world?

Kyle:

I went to school for Graphic Design for way too long and the most valuable thing I learned was that I’m not very good at Graphic Design. Animation has always come easier for me, and I'm a big nerd about it, but in my school there were no Motion Design classes. “Mograph” was barely a thing in schools at my time.

When I was looking for work with my fresh GD degree (Stands for both Graphic Design and Gol’ Dern), I came across a cool Creative/Branding Studio in Berkeley, California who was looking for a flash animation intern. I knew flash from my “Newgrounds.com” days (if you know what I'm talking about then your back probably hurts rn) so I took it on! After I finished the flash stuff, I was moved onto some After Effects projects which I learned as I went. They liked what I did, and I was hired as a Motion Designer.

After 4 years (to the day!) I broke from that Full Time nest to spread my wings in the Freelance world, a phase that would be pretty short lived because of the ever-present and ever-tempting long-term Tech contracts that would beckon me. After a few stints at some beefy internet companies, I decided to venture to the Mograph wilds of Los Angeles to work with We Are Royale!

Bella:

The behind the scenes content you share is super interesting and helpful to see as a fellow artist. Have you ever considered creating a class/being a teacher to share even more of your knowledge?

Dylan:

Thank you! I've always strived to make "Behind the Scenes" content both informational as well as entertaining. Sometimes the BTS is more interesting than the piece itself, and the animation process is very complex and really deserves some extra love.

I absolutely LOVE the BTS breakdowns made by Stéphane Coëdel and Chromosphere (look them up!). Their breakdowns always seemed to go further than a lot of the BTS content I saw out there at the time, they would stop and start the animation, break it down layer by layer, and then use fun sound effects and music to bring the whole thing home. I took a few pages from their books.

In addition to BTS content, I've spent some time teaching a Workshop or two at my alma mater and loved it! I definitely see teaching in my future in some capacity. I would absolutely love to teach an online class if there's enough interest out there.

Bella:

As someone with over 8 years of experience in the industry, how do you think it's changed since you first started? Is there anything you're excited or worried about?

Dylan:

Oh yeah, things are always changing! When I was in school Motion Graphics wasn't even a thing; there was Animation, and there was Graphic Design— they are both very different from Motion Graphics. There may have been some private art schools somewhere that had motion graphics classes but for the most part, I wasn’t aware of it existing in the US education system at the time. Now, Motion Graphics is straight up taught in school, which blows my mind!

The ‘Elder’ generation of Mograph (*cries a little*) used to come from various backgrounds like film, design, or even architecture—so it was easy to meet people who had a good general knowledge of all Mograph trades and beyond. Now that it’s been integrated into the school systems, I’ve noticed a lot more specialized (and crazy talented) people, which definitely changes the vibe a lot.

As far as my fears for the future go—I share, with the rest of the art world, the hesitation about the integration of A.I. art into the field. I’m not afraid that it will take our jobs, but I do worry that the lines between Human created and A.I. created art will blur, and integrity amongst artists will be compromized. It is a dazzling tool, however, and I know we will find great uses for it.

*“Workout” from Dylan’s personal explorations.*

Bella:

What's it like working with We Are Royale? What does being the lead animator/designer entail?

Dylan:

At WAR we do things a little differently. Typically, a Lead Animator/Designer would find themselves mostly delegating and managing people. Because of WAR’s light staff footprint, and our passion for the work, the Leads are still “on-the-box” as it were, typically before the project has even started. We “Lead the Creative '' as our bossboss Brien Holman says, and then we disseminate this special knowledge or technique amongst the rest of the team as the project nears production.

Management was a natural step forward for me at this point in my career, but I just love animating so gol’ dern much that I couldn’t give up being an individual contributor—so I do both.

On bigger projects, I’m definitely finding myself delegating more than animating—but for the most part I straddle the line between Senior animator and management. I learned the hard way that delegating assignments and Animating/Designing are two distinct and very complete jobs, and you can’t do them together very effectively. The lovely people at WAR help me walk that line and help me pick up the slack where needed.

Bella:

When in a creative rut, do you find it helps to step away from what you're working on? Where do you find inspiration?

Dylan:

When I’m in a rut, I find a few things very helpful

1. Just get your first idea on paper, you overachiever, you. Got an idea that you hate because it’s “too basic” or “too obvious” and you can’t think of anything else? Or maybe you don’t have any ideas beyond what was already provided for you? I find it most helpful to JUST DO THE MOST OBVIOUS THING very quickly. Just do it, don’t overthink it. Feel free to keep thinking of ideas, obviously, but your brain just needs some stimulation. Get that idea down on the screen, there ain’t no shame in using your ol’ standby tricks of the trade. Then look at what you got, now tweak it. Still hate it? Please refer to #2.
2. Walk the heck away. Get some water, take a walk, or work on a different aspect of the assignment. Just do something else for a while—ideally with enough time to kinda forget what your art looks like. When I return to a piece after some good time, I definitely have a very immediate reaction, and my first urge gives me a pretty good idea what needs to change/improve; or at the very least, I hate it still and probably need to start over.
3. "Faked-it-til-you-make-ed”. If none of that has worked, boy oh boy, you must be pretty stressed, huh? Well, tough, you’re a hack and you just "faked-it-til-you-make-ed” your little heart out your whole career. Congratulations for tricking literally everyone, everywhere, simultaneously into trusting you. What a mess—your parents were right—wait until your boss finds out you have as much skill as a dressed up Golden Retriever sitting at a computer.
4. Chill out and start fresh. Ok, now that you got all that negative energy out, listen to how ridiculous you sound right now. You’re not a dog. Now breathe. You got this. Now put that thing you made away for a second and start over. I hear you, “But I spent so much time on it, I can’t start over now blahblahblahblah” STOP. Just DO IT. Chill out and start fresh. Stop fiddling with something that’s not working. You’ll either: make something way cooler way than you thought—way faster—and you’ll be very proud of yourself, or hate what you make and that makes the first idea not look so bad after all. At the very least, you’ll get more options for your AD / Client / Sentient Golden Retriever, and they can help steer you in the right direction.
5. Make it fun, silly! We make pretty pictures for a living. Creative brains hate work, so trick yourself into doing work by making yourself laugh. Keep it simple and don’t forget the original reason you started.

Bella:

Your character animation has a lot of personality, but so does your non-character animation. How do you give personality to something that is not a human?

Dylan:

One main challenge I give myself is to try to move more properties than just the “Position, Scale, and Rotation.” When I just do the ol’ P-S-R, it can look pretty flat and lifeless—try to throw in some path animation, or some clever masking for depth, or maybe slap some effect on there for something unexpected. Surprise your viewer! When you treat a flat shape like a flat shape, it’s gonna look like a flat shape; there, I’ll give you that one for free.

Other than that—it’s pretty much Easing, Drifts, and Overshoots/Bounces.

Easing doesn’t have to be complicated, I have basically 2 Easing curves I use for everything, but that’s a secret so please don’t tell anyone.

Drifts are when something stops moving it kinda just keeps going forever—just like my responses to these questions. Learn how to master this move well and most modern mograph is in your bag. I like to use the loopOut(‘continue’) expression and make my curve kinda end abruptly—that’ll do it.

Overshoots and bounces are essential to breathing life into things. Nothing in this world moves from A to B in a linear way and just stops, nothing kills the illusion of life more than those silly diamond linear keyframes. Introduce ‘em to a nice ease curve and they’ll be living before ya know it.

Bella:

How did you start working with Balkan Bump? Are you interested in working with other musicians as well?

Dylan:

Balkan Bump is a band started by my brilliant buddy Will Magid. He was my neighbor in Oakland and he was always filling the halls with sweet sweet Trumpet sounds. We became friends pretty instantly, because how could you not? I started helping him with his album art and branding pretty soon after that. It has been a very rewarding experience seeing my friend climb in popularity and as a result I’ve gotten to go to his shows and meet some of my favorite music producers like Grammatik, and Opiuo to name a few!

I’ve also been privileged to have worked with one of my favorite bands, Vulfpeck, through a completely different set of friends. Woody Goss, the pianist of the group, asked me to help animate a little Christmas special reminiscent of Charlie Brown one year. It’s still one of my favorite pieces to this day!

I love working with musicians, because a lot of the work gets to be more interpretive and artsy than your everyday commercial work. No one hates you when you make it a little funky.

Bella:

Are there any upcoming projects or anything else you're looking forward to this year?

Dylan:

I am looking forward to getting a few more personal short short animations out there and venturing into the Tiktok world of animation—provided it sticks around with us.

Still from the motion graphic spot for Maksoi.

Bella:

Any final words of wisdom for our readers?

Dylan:

Don’t overwork, don’t burn out; energy is precious and finite. Don’t marry your job and don’t date your coworkers. Then, break every single rule I just said, and have a f*cking blast!

Mack Garrison 5/20/23 Mack Garrison 5/20/23

Meet the speakers: Loe Lee

An interview with Loe Lee: an illustrator and art director based in New York

Q&A hosted by Ashley Targonski.

Read time: 15min

Ashley:

Loe, it's great to have you here. I think we can begin by introducing yourself.

Loe:

Yeah, my name is Loe Lee. I am an illustrator and art director here based in New York. Some people I've been lucky enough to work with would be Coca-Cola, the Democrats, VICE, and Uniqlo. I've been both on the agency and the vendor side. One thing that I can usually lend is a bit of experience from both. Recently, I went full-time freelance.

*Project with* *Havas Atlanta* *for Coke Coffee*

Ashley:

How did you get into illustration and art directing?

Loe:

I first started getting into illustration when I worked at an agency called Translation. This was years ago. We did a lot of advertising work. In some of those cases it kind of lent itself to illustration. The first illustrations I did was for a brand back then called Google Play Music. We did illustrated animations that would play together and become social posts. So it was a social rebrand for them. My style back then, since I was just getting into it, was actually mostly vector, especially for animation, but it kind of sparked my, like, "Oh, I can actually do illustration for work." Because before that I was just drawing in my notebook and on coffee cups.

Ashley:

Yeah. It's really cool to realize that something that you love doing can actually be your way forward and how you make money. I know that you create a lot of different illustrations for different platforms like: digital, motion, murals and print, and all kinds of different mediums. How do you balance what to focus on?

Loe:

That's one thing that I feel like I'm weirdly good at. I think because I have a design and art direction background, when I was just doing pure design, I was made to work with all kinds of vendors. So I think that experience of being like, "Okay, well, if I have to break this illustration down for motion, I know what I need to do." Just because I've messed up so many times in the past. For print, I think it's probably not as hard as people think. I think everything is about getting the specs right.

Ashley:

You mentioned earlier that you just went full-time freelance. What made you make that switch from full time? Because I think the last time we interviewed you for a Mograph Lunch, you were just starting at VICE, which is really interesting to see your path to now..

Loe:

I know, I feel like my path is definitely not linear and crazier than I want it to be. I really loved VICE. It was so great. The team was amazing. We worked on a bunch of wonderful projects together. At the same time, I was doing a lot of freelance work. To the point where, if I have to be super honest, I didn't have a social life. I didn't sleep that much. Because after work, I would go home and do work. I would do work on the weekends. Even when I went on vacation and I traveled with my partner or my friends, I was doing work. I was constantly working. I felt like, "It's been kind of tough, I think, on my body for a long time." Doing the freelance thing, I guess I was nervous, because I was like, "Oh, well, I feel like the job is very secure." So many people feel that way. Especially in New York, it's so expensive.

At the end of last year, there was a lot of craziness within the corporate world. There's a lot of restructuring within all the companies. That is also true with the companies I was at. After VICE, I was also at another agency for a little bit. But with all the restructuring, coupled with all the freelance work, I it just wasn't sustainable. It was impacting my health a little bit, which I promised myself I would never do. So I just made the leap within the new year. I was like, "You know what? New year, let's try it out."

*Illustrated animation for VICE’s Global Logo ID series*

Ashley:

Yeah, that was going to be one of my questions, how do you balance a full-time job and your freelance work? I think that would be difficult for anyone, of course. Especially when it's starting to affect your health. I'm hoping that now that you're fully freelance, that's been a good shift for you.

Loe:

Yeah. I think it's definitely possible with the right parameters. If you're like, "Well, I'm only going to take one freelance job a month."it's definitely a balance.

Ashley:

Yea, and I noticed a theme of your work is mental health. Going into that a little further, I know you focused on sleep towards the beginning. Why was that a focus of your earlier work?

Loe:

This is something that I think I talked about mainly when I first started illustrating. When I was in college, I had this mental health issue that I never really had before. Basically, I had insomnia. It wasn't really something that I had before my twenties. I think a lot of mental illnesses do get diagnosed within your twenties. When I got that, I just suddenly wasn't sleeping for a really long amount of time, and it was starting to impact my life at school. I was passing out randomly. Since I was in New York, I was passing out on the subway. Just because of my sleep, I wasn't regulating it at all. There was nothing really I felt like triggering it. I mean, consciously, I wasn't staying up all night working, right? It's just you tossing and turning, walking around at night. It got to a point where I had to take a medical leave for a semester to deal with it. During that semester where I went to get help, at first, I didn't really know much about mental health back then. That was years ago. I had to go back home to my family, but my family thought I had a brain tumor or something like that. I was going in and out of all these x-rays and scans and MRI seeing what was wrong with me, because, of course, it had to be something physical, right? And then when someone suggested that maybe it was mental, even I kind of rejected it because I never really knew about it growing up. It wasn't really something that was taught to me. The only thing I really knew about was depression and I didn't feel that I was depressed. So to me, things weren't really connecting. But once I learned more about insomnia, what triggers it, how it's not just physical.

*Personal project titled “Time to Recharge.”*

When I went back to school for my thesis, I wanted to explore that theme more. So I did this project called A Hundred Ways To Worry. I interviewed a hundred people. I collected their biggest worry at the time and I turned it into an illustration book. And then when you flip the book, it has an affirmation. It was a project where you have one thing that you're really grateful for or you're really proud of and one thing that you're worrying about. And then I also made them into cards.

So when I gave them to the recipient ... Only they know. It's all anonymous. Only the recipient knows their own worry and story. The test was like, "See if you're still worried about this in a year or two." A lot of those people have said, because I know them personally, "Yeah, it's kind of funny because this is something I'm not worried about anymore." It shows that a lot of our worries, I mean, not all of them of course, are transient. That project was received really well.

Ashley:

Yeah. That's really cool. Because I think when you're in it, it's hard to step back and be like, "This won't worry me in a few years." How do you feel like that experience made you grow as an artist? Or did it help you at all as you continue to grow?

Loe:

It definitely did. A lot of questions that people ask me is how I got my style. I always tell people there's no formula to finding your personal style. I think that just continuously drawing things that you like, you'll notice yourself gravitating towards certain colors and themes. For me, because I had a lot of anxiety, I tended to draw things that were calming. So a lot of blues, a lot of soft colors, and a lot of themes where it kind of brings it back to this dreaming, calm state. Honestly, that pervades a lot of my personal work today because that's when I'm the most content, just lying at home, putting HGTV on the TV for background noise and just drawing something that calms me down. I think that's just something really prevalent in city life as well because there's always so much hustle and bustle, especially when you go outside your home or apartment when you go to work. So it's just one of those things where that theme at least helps bring some peace into my life. It's something that I want to put into the world.

*Personal project highlighting Loe’s style.*

Ashley:

Yeah. I love that. As you've been creating your style, it's interesting to see how you've incorporated that into different brands. What's something that you start to think of when you get a new client and you're trying to meld those two styles?

Loe:

A lot of my work recently has been commercial work. I'm trying to put more personal work out there, but it's definitely a balance. At first when I started doing commercial work, I bent a lot to the brands. Especially before, I wasn't as confident in what I was bringing, in my direction or my style. So I was like, "Okay. I'm putting really hardcore branding in there." Because I'm like, "This is for a brand. I'm just happy to be here,"But I think now, very luckily, when people approach me, they know it's going to be a mix between real life and a little bit of fantasy or a little bit of whimsy.

Every single client is definitely different, so I think the key is always to ask those questions in the beginning. Something I always ask is, "How strongly should I be taking from your brand cues or your brand style guideline?" Because sometimes people are really strict, and sometimes they want you to do something entirely on your own. I think one example would be ... Even when I was working at VICE, obviously my style and VICE's style is very, very different. I know VICE is a little bit grittier. Sometimes it can get a little bit gross, sometimes it gets a little bit scary, so how can I implement that into what I bring to the table and meld those styles together? Sometimes it takes a lot of reworking, a lot of noticing little things, like VICE uses a lot of black. They use a lot of gritty textures, things like that. So just noticing those small details and adding that to my illustrations. When I worked with Uniqlo, for example, I think our brand messageswork together really well, positivity, vibrancy, living on the edge of helping people in their everyday lives versus going towards a little bit of fantasy. So when I worked with them, they were like, "Go crazy. Have fun. Do what you do." As long as it pertained to their theme, which was living vibrantly in New York. So it really depends, but it's definitely a sliding scale.

Ashley:

When you were first starting out and you had started to develop your style, was it nice to have your personal artwork on your website? Did that help people come to you for brand work?

Loe:

Definitely. I would say that's the biggest advice I give people who are starting out, is that a lot of times people, even for me, too, when I hire for something or when people hire me for something, they want to see the literal thing, which is really funny. Once I was pitching myself for these Subway ads. They were like, "Well, but have you done a Subway ad?" I was thinking to myself, "I haven't illustrated a Subway ad, but I've done plenty of print, so I'm not really sure what the difference is." The difference is there's really no difference. Honestly, now that I've done it so many times. It's just the specs. As long as you work with the specs, it's really the same as any print project.

One thing that I urge is that if you do a personal project, the funniest thing is even if you put it on a mock-up just to show what it would look like, and you post it online, it does get you hired for that specific dream project much easier. I don't think there's any problem putting that mock-up onto your site. I think what’s happening ... at least on my end, after I was doing more mood boarding and direction ... A lot of times, art directors have to do things really quickly. You have a time limit. Sometimes things have to go really fast. There's a quick turnaround.

So when I'm doing a coffee bag, for example, and I see, "Oh, this illustration's amazing, but I have to show some illustration on coffee bags. But for me to mock them up, it's going to take time that I don't have." If I already see on Pinterest, on Behance, or something like that, I can quickly grab it and put it on the mood board and present it, and then find the illustrators who worked on it. It's very easy to grab and see it so literally. It's so easy to pitch yourself and for the agency or the art director to pitch you to the client. Because a lot of clients, they're not art directors, so they can't tell you can do it until they see it.

Ashley:

Yeah. I was going to say, I think some clients ... There's some study about this, where creative people can actually see things in their mind on an object and other people can't. So when you're trying to pitch something to someone who's in an industry that doesn't require that skill, they just can't see it. So that is a really cool thing, if you have it on your website, they're like, "Okay, I already know that they can do this because it's there. I see it. It's tangible." When you get new work, what are clients and projects that you try to take on? How do you differentiate what you want to take on versus what you say no to?

Loe:

I think, definitely last year, when I was super busy, I was much pickier. This year, I'm much less picky because now I'm doing this full time. But I think things that I was really picky about is if it's a project that doesn't really match my style very well, but for some reason they want me to work on it. That happens a lot, actually. I'm not really sure why, but I think they want to see if I can fit the mold. But if the mold is really just so different from what I offer, I don't really take those projects on as much.

I think one other thing is if I see red flags in the process, the pitching process. For me, that would be wanting an answer within ... I know everything is rushed, but if a client or an agency messages me and then I don't answer in an hour, they're like, "Hey, we need this right now." I'll be like, "Hmm. I feel like the process is going to be really crazy." If I don't get back to them immediately, it seems like a fire drill. Everyone's different. A lot of people are probably like, "That's totally fine and normal." But for me, that's an indication of what the process is going to be like.

Or if you get asked so many questions down to the wire, especially when it comes to licensing, I think those are red flags as well. For example, there was one project where they're like, "Yeah, you're just going to do this one thing." And then in the license it would be, "For print." Even though what we discussed was just going to be a card. It'd be like, "Print is vague. It should really just be, 'For this card, for this amount of time.'" And they're like, "Well, we want to include, 'For print,' and leave the timeline open-ended, but the price is the same." Of course that's a big red flag. So you're like, "Maybe this is not for me," because you don't want to get in a place where your card is now a promotional poster which you didn't get paid for. Little things like that. Otherwise, I try to be pretty open to the projects.

Ashley:

Yeah. Sometimes they don't fully know how to build a contract. But it is good, as you were saying, to create those parameters. Be like, "Actually, this should just be what we agreed upon, the card, not all print materials."

Loe:

Mm-hmm.

Ashley:

When you think about art direction or something that would need more of that type of work, do you go about it differently than you would just starting an illustrative project?

Loe:

Yeah, I definitely do. Most times when I do just an illustration and it's a one-off, they know my style and then they come for that specific thing. Of course, they have their own brief and concept, but they want me to do my thing, in simple terms. But sometimes whens a bigger project especially a branding project, they want to see where you will take it. That's where I think the design direction comes in. Because at least for me, I'm very familiar with making decks, especially decks that tell the style and the story of where the direction is heading. So I think that's really where it comes into play. Because then you could be like, "Okay, well, this direction is sliding scale of your style. So here is very commercial. Very, oh, more standard, more commercial, very digestible and approachable"

And then, "Here is something that's really outside of your box. It still has some nods to your brand, but this is really pushing the limit and bringing it a little closer to what my personal style is." A lot of times I like to present one safe option, one wild card, and then something in the middle. When you do those three directions, it's usually a longer deck. It's a longer presentation. It's a longer pitch. But I think for those, it's more like a walkthrough and more of ... Not like a sell, but yeah, it's kind of like your pitch of these ideas, and the rationale behind it. All that good stuff that people are really familiar with when they're trying to sell a client something. And then some of the one-off illustration projects, it's like, "Okay, they're coming to me, I'm going to do my thing, and then we're going to collaborate on that."

Ashley:

I did want to talk about your mural work a little bit because I really love it and everything that goes behind it. I wanted to talk about your Care for Chinatown project. I don't know if that's still ongoing, but if you want to talk about what started it, what inspired it, and then how that went.

Loe:

Yeah. I actually really want to get back to mural work because last year I just could not do it, because it just takes so much time. Because you have to be onsite for days at a time, which I couldn't do. I couldn't take off from work. But for the Chinatown project, that was during COVID and that's when we started working from home. My family's from Chinatown. That's where they immigrated to in the sixties. So we have a lot of roots here. And I have seen this area change within the last 30 years. My family's still here. I'm living here currently. We're just very ingrained in the culture here, in the neighborhood. But it was during COVID, I think that ... It was no mystery that there was a lot of ostracization and xenophobia here.

Here in Chinatown, as you may imagine, it is an extremely popular tourist site for New York City. It's one of those things that everyone always hits and goes to. But during COVID it was like a ghost town, which I've never seen, ever. Except maybe when I was growing up, when it wasn't that safe back then. But now it's very bustling. I think that during that time there was also a lot of ... There was a lot of violence. There was a lot of vandalism. People were coming to the area to mess with the people here, the neighborhoods here and the residents. It was just really tough and difficult for all of us, I think, because nobody is really supporting the restaurants anymore. It was a really tough time for the Chinatown neighborhood, in general. Dealing with the racism, the lack of business, all this vandalism, which we don't have money to repair for.

There is an organization that banded together, which is Welcome to Chinatown. It's actually a lot of working professionals that are younger, that came together to kind of help revitalize the neighborhood. Because one obstacle that was happening,, is that a lot of the residents that are part of the culture, like the people who own the local shops, are family run. Those families immigrated here to give their children a better life, mine included. They worked really hard And then that's really an older generation that is still there because the kids like me, we have more of an office job. That's what that generation wanted for my generation.So those generations aren't always coming back to do the family business.

A lot of those times, those restaurants or those small businesses, they don't know anything about social media. They don't know anything about marketing. That's not really a thing. A lot of people, they don't even know English. So it's really hard to market an area if you're not physically there. So what Welcome to Chinatown did is ... because they have a lot of savvy people. There's actually a lot of marketing people in that organization. They created the campaign, the website. They throw events. They do experiential stuff. All throughout Chinatown, they plan stuff. When I saw them start doing that, they also rearranged the restaurants to ship food to the hospitals, because there's a lot of hospitals around us as well.

Ashley:

Yeah.

Loe:

Because the hospitals were overworked, and then they needed the food. And then the same thing with the restaurant scene of the business. So that partnership really helped a lot of people. When I reached out to this organization, one thing that they wanted me to do is help do these art projects or these murals within the community and for businesses that wanted them. Of course it'd be donated, and then we would raise the money for the supplies. It was really great.

Loe Continued:

What I really loved is that a lot of times for these projects, they also f turned into mural workshops. It was all planned out. It would be announced where you could go. You would have to get access, of course there was one mural where we did it in the community center. All the kids there helped out. They honestly painted the mural way more than I did. I mean, they did most of the work Once you showed them what to do, they're like, "Oh, this isn't so hard." And then they were able to take it away. When I say kids, I mean kids in high school.

Ashley:

Oh, I was thinking little kids!

Loe:

I was like, "Ah, painting murals, and then they're swinging the paint brush." That'd be really cute, but I think the people at the offices would not like that ... But no, they're high school kids. They're really interested in art and they're going to go to college soon. I think that was really close to my heart \There's a big organization called CPC. They help the lower income communities here. My family was part of CPC when they were growing up. They took them off the streets. So to be able to help the kids of this generation in CPC, earn more about art and that this is a viable career path, I think that was probably the best part of the whole project. More than just making pretty murals, which is really fun. But just showing that there are ways that you can help the neighborhood and it could be done through design and art.

Ashley:

Yeah. I love that there's a community of people that are, like, "Here's how we can help," and that you were able to be a part of that.

Loe:

Yeah.

Ashley:

I was curious, to pivot a little bit, about your thoughts on AI. Especially being an illustrator, is there anything you're worried or excited about with the topic of AI?

Loe:

It's really funny because everybody's talking about this, right? All the illustrators are like, "Oh, my God, the AI is going to make us obsolete," all these things. My old boss was like, "Who says we're not obsolete already?" And I was like, "Oh, my God.." But I don't know, it's definitely interesting. I think there are a lot of ways that AI can help people. There's some people I know that it's actually helped them find, for example, gaps within their resume, gaps within their writing. They're not trying to copy it, but it's helped them learn and improve. So things like that I think is really helpful. But when it comes to I guess the AI generating of images, I do think it can help you generate new ideas if you're feeling stuck. But I think it's definitely a tricky topic. It's one of those things that's like, "I don't really know who asked for this, but here it is."

Ashley:

Yeah.

Loe:

Right? It's to make art, I think, more accessible to a population who doesn't really specialize within the industry. For me, I'm probably not the target audience for an AI art generator because this could go as a direct competition to my work. But I still think that there's definitely a missing element that only humans can create or provide. A lot of the projects that you get, of course it has to do with art, but a lot of it is also about collaboration.

We can only hope that through the proper channels people will want to work with artists themselves. When people go back to the Polaroids and the records, or things like that, even though it's a really weird comparison, you still want to work with people. You still want to work with specific artists and specific agencies and specific companies. So I don't think it'll be a dystopian robot takeover.

Ashley:

Yeah. I think we hit on earlier, people come to you for your style, but then also because of that collaboration. So I think it's, as you were saying, hand in hand. You have to be able to create the art, but then you also have to be able to work with the brand, meld the two brands together, understand your client. There's so much more that goes into that. I know a lot of people are afraid of AI, but I think I feel the same way as you do.

Loe:

Mm-hmm.

Ashley:

I just have some questions for advice for illustrators. My first one is, what advice would you give someone trying to get into the industry as an illustrator?

Loe:

I think if you're looking to do more commercial or branding work, putting those mock-ups on the site like we talked about and showing that, oh, you can adapt your style towards these different brands, I think that helps a lot in terms of selling yourself.

In terms of just putting it out there, sometimesI feel like a lot of people put a lot of pressure on social media. Where they're like, "Oh, I'm going to post this artwork," let's say on Instagram. Then they're like, "Huh, that sucks. Nobody saw it." And then you're like, "Oh, What's even the point of doing this?" But I think spreading it across different platforms, you have Dribble, Behance, Pinterest, Instagram, TikTok, all these things.

You never know who's going to see it. Sometimes when I talk to art directors, as the vendor, they'll show me the mood boards. And then the pieces where all I did was put it on Behance or put it on my own personal website, because I was like, "Oh, no one's going to see this. It's a niche little thing that only I like." If I see it on the mood board, I'm like, "How did you find that?" So you really never know how anybody finds you. Because I think someone was like, "Yeah, I saw you on a blog post." And I was like, "Wow, that's so crazy," because that's the last place that I would think. But you really don't know. Or someone was like, "Yeah, I saw your stuff on LinkNYC," which is those charging ports on the street. I was like, "Oh, that's so funny." Sometimes, I think we put a lot of pressure on social media and it kind of discourages us to put the art out there. You never know who's going to see, so I still think putting it out there is fine. It can never hurt you.

Ashley:

Mm-hmm. I think that's great advice. Because it could just be a random passerby looking at something, and like, "Who is this artist?" That's really cool. And then I know that you ... I don't know if you're still represented by an agent, but at one point you were. Are you still represented?

Loe:

Yes, I'm still represented by the same agent, Rapp Art.

Ashley:

Can you talk about the process of getting an agent? And then any advice you would have for someone who's looking for one.

Loe:

Oh, yeah. I think this is something that a lot of my friends ask me when they want to switch to illustration. When I applied for an agent, I went on these industry sites, like ADC or Society of Illustrators or Director of Illustration to see who my favorite illustrators were represented by. That was how I saw this list, or I made this list of reps that I really wanted to apply to.

When you see someone, you're like, "Oh, I really love this artist," and they're represented by Rapp Art or Debut or something like that, you want to apply. At least for me, I had to cold apply. Of course you get mostly silence. At that point, I just started doing illustration. I always thought when I got a rep that I'd be like, "Oh, my God, my life is set. I got a rep. They're going to be throwing me work constantly. I'm totally set." When I finally got into Rapp Art/Mendola, I was ecstatic, because I really love a lot of the artists in there. I love the whole team now. They're so great. I couldn't live without them now.

But there's definitely a reality check in that, just because you have a rep, it doesn't mean that you're going to get a constant stream of work. You still have to put in the work to get work. A lot of people are like, "Oh, I just want a rep so I don't have to do this outreach pitching anymore." And I'm like, "No, You're going to be doing that still. Make no mistake, that is still happening." At least for me, I think a lot of the work I get is 50% myself and 50% the agent. There's a lot of agencies where if you get the work yourself, you may not have to pass it off to your agent. It depends on your contract.

That's part of it too. They've thrown me a bunch of really great projects. I think that's a great way of how I got started. But now, it's more like 50/50. I would say I got my first really big project from them. And then once you do a good job on that project, then I think more projects start rolling in. But instead of depending on your agent to get you work, you guys are working together in tandem to get work together.

Ashley:

Yeah. I didn't even realize, when I first got into the motion industry, that agents were a thing. So it's so cool to see that it could be a good partnership for people in the industry.

Loe:

Yeah. I think for anyone looking to be represented, I would definitely do a deep dive on the reps you're looking at. Because I love Rapp Art. And then there's other ones that have over a hundred people on the roster.One thing I hear is that if there's a lot of people on the roster sometimes you can get lost in the list and you don't get any work. The agent doesn't know you as well, you're new, so you don't always get mentioned.

If that agent who has 500 artists doesn't really remember you in that moment, and they always pitch the same, let's say 100 people, then I would say, yes, that is tough, because that's something that I've heard from other artists. But at the same time, when you have a roster that's 10 people or 20 people, it's much harder and more competitive to get in, as well. So I would do research on what you want.

Ashley:

Yeah. I think that's great advice. For someone who is struggling to find their style or niche within the industry, do you have any advice for them?

Loe:

I think my biggest advice is always just to keep drawing. You don't always have to share what you draw. I know an artist that's like, "I really like Adventure Time." And then they started drawing a lot of stuff like Adventure Time. But then eventually, as they kept drawing, they're like, "Well, I like different things. I'm a different person." So eventually they start going more in the direction of what they like.

When I started drawing, I really liked a lot of black and white ink artists. Because I didn't own an iPad or anything like that, so I was just drawing on ink and paper. I didn't learn illustration either, so that's the way that I started. I always list an artist named Maggie Enterrios. She's also known as Little Patterns on social media. I was in love with her drawings in college. I've told her this. So I was drawing just like her when I was in college, in my notebooks. But of course, if you look at my style now, it is just so different from that. I also love artists like Dave Arcade. I love movies from Studio Ghibli. I think you take all these inspirations and you eventually find what your own thing is. It's kind of annoying to say, because that's not the easy way. It's just like, keep doing it, keep doing it, and it takes so long, but it's really the only way. It's like learning how to cook. It's like, yeah, you can do a quick workshop on how to cook these things, or you could do a quick training, but to really find the nuances of it, and find what you like, and discover, "Oh, this is my way," you have to just keep doing it.

Ashley:

Mmm-hmm.

Loe:

As long as you keep drawing and finding things that you like, what make you unique, you'll eventually find your own themes, things that you like to draw, ways that are more comfortable for you. You'll find it, but you just have to actually put in the work to doing it. You know?

Ashley:

Yeah. Kind of like learning the rules before you break them.

Loe:

Yeah, exactly. That's the way I did it, anyway. I was kind of emulating a bunch of people I liked. And then eventually you become confident in what you like and your direction, and you find yourself. In a cheesy way.

Ashley:

No, I love that. I think especially with media now, seeing all of these different artists and being inspired by so many people, I think that's a great starting point. Find what you love that's out there, and then build off of that.

Well Loe, it was great to meet you and I’m really excited for you to speak at the bash later in the year!

Loe:

Yeah. It was great talking to you too. Good to meet you!

Mack Garrison 5/12/23 Mack Garrison 5/12/23

Meet the speakers: Ariel Costa

An interview with Ariel Costa AKA Blink My Brain: an Emmy award winning Creative / Animation (mixed-media) Director based in Los Angeles, CA.

Q&A hosted by Mack Garrison.

Read time: 15min

Mack:

Ariel! Welcome. We're thrilled to have you come to The Dash Bash!.

Ariel:

I'm honored.

Mack:

I'd love to find out where Blink My Brain started. What's the idea for it? Where did you get the idea that you can make the weirdest stuff out there and make it commercially viable?

Ariel:

But it's not for all brands. I'm aware of that, but that's okay. I passed the point that I was trying to fit in and trying to make my craft more popular. When I mean popular, I mean more accessible for clients.

I've been working with Motion Graphics for almost 15 years now. It's been a while. During this timeframe I've been trying to explore and do all kinds of animation. I dove my feet into 3D a little bit, and cel animation. But collage was always part of me because I remember when I was a kid, I usually cut out characters from my mother's magazines to make action figures.

Mack:

Oh, cool. That's cool.

Ariel:

Yeah. That was super fun. Eventually, I started to draw my own characters. I had my own studio back in Brazil. I ran my studio for four and a half years. I figured that I was becoming more of a manager, a business guy.

It's natural because if you have a studio, of course you need to count on smarter people to do the job for you because you're going to be busy doing other stuff, taking care of people. It's more about making everyone in your environment happy to produce good stuff.

It’s better now, but during the time, motion graphics was something very new for the entire world, and especially in Brazil. The agencies back there, they didn't know how to work properly and how to ask for some motion graphics work. So that made my life at the time very miserable because we already had the Motionographer and all the websites.

We used to have way more websites at the time, to get references, to be inspired. I was feeling very hungry to produce those kinds of things.

The combination of not having the opportunity from the agencies in Brazil to do that, and my managing role that I had to take at the time made me very miserable inside. So, I was not happy at all.I wanted to develop my craft. I wanted to do something cool. I was always looking for everyone's work and getting inspired. I said, okay, now I want to be doing this stuff. I want to produce. I want to create.

I decided to leave my studio. I built up a website, with a bunch of fake ads. Now I know that people call it spec works, but at the time, it was completely fake stuff. I put a bunch of well-known brands in there, like Nike and stuff. I did some side frames, just so I can show people what I was capable of doing. I just wanted to send out some portfolios.

I bought a flight ticket to Los Angeles. I just said, okay, I'm going to just toss the coin and see what happens. I sent work to a couple of studios and said, "Okay guys, I have this ticket already. I'll be in LA next week. I would love to schedule a conversation with you."

Luckily for me, at the time, professionals like motion graphics artists were in a very high demand, but there was not a lot of people doing this kind of stuff. I got a call for a couple of studios. I luckily got a job. I came here to the United States. I worked for this nice studio called Roger. From Roger, I felt like I needed to expand more of my stuff because to me, it's always about learning. It's always about connecting with people and trying to absorb the skills. It's about evolving. I don't want to be better than anyone else. I just want to be better than I was yesterday. I'm doing it for me, for myself, for my soul. I want to learn. I feel happy, I feel alive when I'm learning something new, when I'm out of my comfort zone. I decided, okay, let me just give it a shot. I'll send some of my stuff to Buck. I got a nice response from Buck. Then, I luckily was hired. I worked at Buck for two and a half years. Then again, I think I was not designed to be staff.

Mack:

Sure.

Ariel:

For some people, it works and it's fine. Whatever works for you. It's not for me because I like the freedom that I have, to do whatever I want, to have my time.

Anyways, Buck, I feel like it was the school that I never had in my whole life. I had the chance to meet such amazing people, not just talented folks, but incredible people and friends that I carry up to today.

It was an amazing experience for me. But after two and a half years, it felt like, okay, I feel like it's time for my next leap. I know that I don't want to be searching for another studio for me to work.

Blink My Brain, it started as a joke. I wanted to create the Blink My Brain as a website of references.

I wanted to do something like that because Blink My Brain, to me, is something that you get so focused on something that you love. You were watching those references. It just got paralyzed. You were asking for someone, "Please. I felt like my brain just froze. Please, can you just blink my brain so I can come back to life?," something like that.

I always loved this name. I decide, okay, and I want to go as a freelancer, but I don't want to go as a regular freelancer. I wanted to be more like a problem solver, rather than just a tool.

I don't want to go to studios and just be the after-effects guy, pulling buttons here and there. I want to operate more as, it's a one-man studio. I always tell my clients, "I can operate according to your project. So if your project demands me to hire more people to help me out, I can scale and I can get those people. I can get a producer."

I just want to be a problem solver. I want to just offer my services as more of a creative director. Also, I can provide you all the tools you need, but without the hassle.I don't want to compromise myself, of having a studio again and becoming a manager again. I'm okay if I can become a manager for a couple projects, but I don't want that to be my main role.

Mack:

So prior to starting all of this, this endeavor, what were you doing in Brazil that got you in motion design?.

Ariel:

Man, I always knew that I wanted to do something involving creativity. I had a lot of phases in my life. There was a point I wanted to do comic books. There was another point that I wanted to do painting.

Something that I carried for a very long time, when I was trying to discover myself in a creative way, is my desire to become a live action director. I always wanted to become a live action director because I wanted to tell stories.

There was something about the camera, the lenses, how it can capture and frame an action or something. That was very appealing to me. It was more like, deep inside of me, I always loved the design of a shot, the design of the composition, the lighting, the entire thing. I love the structure to create a very appealing image, something that was very, very, very nice. In Brazil, we don't have a lot of... of course, at the time, didn't have a lot of film schools. I ended up doing media art back in Brazil. They have these television programs where you can be behind cameras. Eventually, you can move yourself to a director to the commercials and stuff like that. That was my main plan.

They have a channel in Brazil, that’s just for colleges. So, every college has its own show in there. So, I got this internship there. The only role that they had at that time was to create the promo, the graphics and the opening for the shows and stuff like that. It was after effects, this weird software that I had to learn in, I don't know, two weeks. It was fun. It was a fun, scary moment. But once I figured out the possibilities, I completely fell in love with its abilities. In my mind was, okay, I'm able to make cinema here without needing this big crew.

Mack:

So you're running your own shop again. I know there's probably things you want to do differently. You knew what you didn't like. You wanted to lean into what you like, which I'm sure comes back to this very unique style. Did you know that when you started Blink My Brain that you were going to lean into this particular style?

Ariel:

Nope. That's the thing. I knew what I wanted, but I didn't know what I was, who I was. That was two different things. First, I knew that I wanted to become independent. Once I decided to leave Buck, I did what everyone that wanted to get work to do. You do a portfolio, make a portfolio.

I made my portfolio. I showed to a couple of friends. They told me, "Ariel, that's cool. It's an amazing portfolio, but I feel like this portfolio, it's not you. This is Buck."I look at and say, "You are absolutely right. I love the work that I did at Buck, but it's hard for me to show to other people what I can offer because this is not my portfolio." There's a bunch of other people working on the same project that I was working.

So, I decided to come up with a personal project and something that I was... it needed to be completely different of what Buck was doing at the time.

Then I brought back the collage kind of thing. It's something that, it's not shell animation, it's not so organic. I wanted to do something monochromatic. Buck, it was all about colors, all about gradients and stuff. Then I decided, okay, I want to do a piece of art. I was watching Seven, Dave Lynch. So I thought, man, that could be cool. That could be really, really interesting.I came up with this concept of... it's not more like a storytelling, but it's more like a concept. It's a representation of the seven deadly sins. So I decided, okay, let's do something different. I want to do something very provocative, very shocking and something that it's not... I want to be totally the opposite of what Buck is doing because Buck was doing something that was very, not just...How can I say? Of course, it was beautiful, but it's kind of kids friendly. I want to do something very, very opposite, very aggressive, very-

Mack:

Edgy. Different.

Ariel:

It's like a statement. I'm here and I'm not here for bullshitting. I just wanted to show attitude. I just want to show something different. So, yeah. Then I created these project scenes and I put it out there. I was really, really surprised with the reception.

Mack:

I'm assuming that it just starts to grab and garner attention. People are like, what is this? Did you land some big clients right off the bat from that?

Ariel:

Yeah, from that. Luckily for me, I brought back to life this passion for collage. I found, okay, now this is something that I really enjoy doing. I want to do something more focused into that.

The idea of creating this contrast between the vintage, like old photos, with the modern, put them in a digital, manipulate, mix it up with something else and create something, give a different life to an old photo. To me, it was very interesting. After that, I received this email from Warner Music. They saw this piece, Sins. "Man, I saw this piece and I feel like you could be a good fit to do a music video for a band," at the time, like Green Day. I saw, man, really? Oh, that's cool. So, I did a little treatment. They liked it. Then I did the music video for Green Day.

After that, my name passed along inside Warner and went to Rhino, which is a sister company from Warner. They usually take care of the most old school bands. At the time, Led Zeppelin, they were about to release their... it's a box with the best of the best of shows.

Mack:

Oh, yeah. Like a box set. Yeah. Yeah.

Ariel:

Yeah, a box set. It's a BBC release. It was something big for the company. They wanted me to create a music video for one of the songs. That would be part of the campaign of release.

They invited me to do something for Led Zeppelin, which was awesome for me. It was surreal. Even today to me, something that I cannot believe that I had a chance to work with Led Zeppelin. I thought it was impossible because they're no longer a band. But it was a great moment because even though they're no longer a band, the brand Led Zeppelin, for me to working with them and getting feedback, from the band, it was amazing. After that, I had a chance to work with some incredible other clients, that I'm very grateful to be on this journey. Yeah.

Mack:

So you come up with this edgy aesthetic. It lands the Green Day music, lands the Led Zeppelin endeavor. I'm sure stuff starts to roll in. Now all of a sudden you're in this. You've defined the look for yourself. You've created this edgy persona.If you look at your website right now, the first thing that you see is fuck average. That's the first thing that you see on the site. Right?

Ariel:

Yes.

Mack:

I mean, it is bold. It is in your face. I always find myself giving critiques to students who are trying to get in the space. "Put the work on your website that you want to do. If you don't want to do that work, don't put it on your website."

Ariel:

That's it. That's it, man. That's it.

Mack:

So, here I am looking at your site. It's got this aggressive but confident mentality. There is a very clear style. Now you're in it. So, I'm assuming that the clients who do reach out to you now, they get it. They don't question that aggression that comes with it because that's who you are. Is that right?

Ariel:

I did a couple of projects that were still simulating what Buck was doing and was trying to understand that. I was pushing myself. I think it was a naive and very young part of myself, trying to discover himself. I was trying to compete with people on Instagram and say, "Oh my God. Now that guy did this. I need to do something similar, but better or similar but with different colors."

I was seeing projects that other people were doing. Oh my God, I wanted to do that. Why didn't I come up with it? It was a battle that I was having with myself. It was a very poisonous kind of thing, relationship, with me and my work. I was not happy at all with that.

Once I started to stop caring... not caring, but stop trying to be someone else, I told you, okay, now I want to do what I want to do. I don't care what other people would think about my work.

I want to do what makes me happy. I'm going to stop doing this, and I want to do what... I'm going to stop mimicking other people. I'm just going to be real to myself. That's when I found, really, joy.

Of course, I still see work of other people and I think, oh my God, it's amazing. It's beautiful. But this is not something that I want to do. This is not something that I want to mimic. I love seeing other people’s work out there. Now I feel like I'm more mature. I know how to appreciate other people's work.

Mack:

Well, it's really interesting because social media can be amazing because it connects us with all these artists, all these different shops, all these studios. You get all this great inspiration. You see this amazing stuff. But it can also be toxic because all you see is amazing stuff.

Ariel:

That's it. That's it. It's light. It's light. It's beautiful. My creative process, every time that I'm trying to create a concept for a project, I'm just seeing things that, it's not related to motion graphics. I'm just seeing science books or anything that is nothing related to the work we do. That helped me a lot, to see the possibilities that I have. I'm not limited to just one thing. I can spread my stuff elsewhere. It's fun.

Mack:

You've done such a good job of creating this space for yourself and who you are, your brand. You have a very distinctive style, and you're happy with the stuff you're making. I know that as creatives, one of the things that we all navigate with and struggle with is burnout. Right?

Ariel:

Burnout is something that will happen. To me, it's just like exercising. You might love doing exercise. You might love to work out, lifting weights, lifting weights. But if you train every day, your biceps, you're going to overtrain sometime. You're going to have muscle fatigue out of that. It's the same thing with our brain. No matter if you love what you're doing, but if you are doing in a very constant way and if you're dealing with stress...Because in the end of the day, it's about the client's needs. I know I create this craft, but I tend to do sometimes projects that I'm not creatively proud of, but we have to pay the bills. It's normal. It's part of the industry.

Now that I'm almost in my forties, things that have usually upset me in the past, they don't upset me anymore because I know how to deal with that. I know how to recognize when I'm leaning towards the burnout path. I tend to avoid that. But it happens, for sure, for sure.

Mack:

I think it's just being in tune with who you are, how you're feeling and to acknowledge it. I think sometimes we put a lot of pressure on ourselves as creatives, to be creative on demand.

We’ve talked a little bit about your past, the beginnings, what you were doing in the middle years, where you are now. But what I'd love to end this conversation with, Ariel, is a little bit of the future, thinking ahead.

We're in this really weird and kind of unique space of motion design. Technology is making things easier than ever, but it's also introducing some controversial things, like AI, the generated art, the ChatGPT, what's come out. As you think about Blink My Brain in the future, are you excited about these new technologies and how you can use it in your work? Or does it make you nervous with how automated it is?

Ariel:

I have mixed feelings about all of these. At one point, I see that could be a really nice tool for you to create some sort of inspiration or to create color palettes, to create maybe some textures out of that or things like that. But it bothers me that people are putting out something that they just typed in a prompt and they just proclaim themselves as AI artists.

Everyone is free to do whatever they want. Again, I passed the point of judging people, but this could be a really dangerous path, if you think about it.

One of my friends told me that one agency in Brazil just fired 20 people, just to be doing things with AI. So, they're doing AI for commercial release now. They're using the AI creation. This is something that I'm not pro. I like the idea, of course, you can generate whatever you want and just post it, whatever you want.

But again, I feel like this should be used as a source of inspiration and not as a source of making money. I posted the other day that I lost a pitch for a guy that did AI.

Mack:

I saw that.

Ariel:

Yeah. I spent, I don't know, two weeks doing a treatment for that.

It was for a band, a band that's supposed to be all for creativity. It's an art, craft, just like we all are doing the animation. They decided to go with the AI. I saw the result the other day. It was the most generic kind of... The visuals, it's very similar to everything that you are seeing out there. They just generated the same frame five times, putting in sequence. Every scene is just a version of that shot. That felt weird to me.

Mack:

To me, it's the originality that comes along with that, using the tool for inspiration, using the tool to build off new ideas and to push the boundaries of what's possible with the accent to help with that direction.

But as soon as you look at it as a replacement... Like the agency you mentioned, that let go of the 20 staff members, a replacement, the band that looks at it through the lens of, this can be our music video, a replacement.

You get to this negative space. That's where it's this constant churning of just the same old, same old. It's not new. That's what I said. It just feels like it's being borrowed from what's out there. I don't like that.

Ariel:

It's not a tool. It's doing the work for you. You're not doing anything. You're just typing shit in the prompter. It is a tool once you use that as a source of inspiration, again, as you can create. I want to spark some ideas for new characters or for color palette. I just want to see what I can come up with. That is a tool. But once you use the results, the outcomes of these typings into your work and you post it and you say, "Okay, I'm a AI artist," that's not a tool. That's a fucked up thing.

Mack:

I think with the originality of an artist and pushing that and being more different, it even highlights the importance of more artists finding their own Blink My Brain, like you did. Because finding your style, finding something that's unique for you and pushing that forward is more important than ever, as these tools are generating more commonalities in the space.

Ariel:

I feel like to me, I'm kind of oversaturated with this AI thing. I don't even use the Midjourney. I used to use Midjourney for a source of inspiration and things like that, just to come up with some ideas for colors and stuff. But it felt so saturated because now everyone, no matter what prompt you put in there, it feels like everything's the same. So, I just stepped away from these directions. I don't think, again, it's for me. Yeah. I'm not against it, but I don't support it if you use it in the wrong way.

Mack:

Yeah. I feel the same way. It's going to be an interesting future.

Ariel, just wanted to say thank you so much for hanging out with me and we’re excited to have you at the Bash.

Ariel:

It's going to be amazing. It's going to be amazing, dude.

Mack Garrison 5/4/23 Mack Garrison 5/4/23

Meet the speakers: John Roesch

An interview with John Roesch: Lead Foley Artist at Skywalker Ranch and co-founder of Audible Bandwidth Productions.

Q&A hosted by Meryn Hayes & Cory Livengood.

Read time: 15min

Meryn:

Meryn Hayes: For those who don't know you, could introduce yourself.

John:

Sure. My name is John Roesch and I'm a professional Foley artist that has been working in the film business for almost 44 years now. Playing in a big sandbox, making sounds that if I do my job right, you don't know I've done.

Meryn:

Foley is one of those jobs that people don't tend to appreciate until they hear a movie without it. We're really glad that you're joining us to talk about such an important part of the entertainment industry not many people know about.

*Where the Sounds From the World's Favorite Movies Are Born - WIRED*

John:

Well, I'm glad I am too because like you say, Thor is running towards saving the day, so to speak, and we're close up on his feet and he's running really fast. And wait a minute, if there's no sound there, I'd be like, "Is this guy really a hero?" Or same thing for a gal. So our contribution, and of course we're a small spoke on a big wheel, can lend credence to giving a sense of reality because of course, as we know, all filmmaking is just that, it's smoke and mirrors. But we want to make sure that you, the audience, feel that you're completely immersed in it and it's "real" to you.

Cory:

I'm curious about how you found yourself in this part of the filmmaking process. I know you dabbled in acting and directing at a younger age, how did those skills translate to Foley if they do at all? And how did you end up in your big sandbox, as you say.

John:

I was an actor in high school and I went to NYU film school and then I went to the American Film Institute thinking I'll be a director. And just so happened that a gal that did my script supervision for the one AFI film I did, she said, "Hey John, I need help doing sound."

And next thing I know they look around and say, "Well, this guy's got sneakers. Are you a runner?" I said, "Yeah." A guy goes, "Well, this film has running in it. Come to the Foley stage." What is that? The Foley stage? "Come to the Foley stage." Okay. So I show up and they say, "See that guy on the screen there?" Yeah. "Okay, run for him." All right, so I ran across the room. They said, "No, no, no, you have to run in front of the microphone. Like, "Oh, I see." They're going to record the sound. I went home that night and I thought, "That is the stupidest job ever."

And next thing I know, I get a call from her husband, Emile and he said, "Hey, I really like what you did. Can you come in tomorrow to this other stage, do Foley?" I thought, "Okay, I guess." So I'm leaving my place in Venice, California and I had a convertible, I was backing up and, oh, there's the landlady. "Hey Joaney, how you doing?" She says, "Hey Johnny, where are you going?" I said, "I'm going to the Foley stage." She's not going to know what that is.

Cory:

Yeah, of course!

John:

She says, "Hey, that's what I do. They just fired somebody there. Maybe they'll hire you."

Cory:

Your landlady?

John:

I thought, "Man, has this got kooky or what?" I'm not so sure. So I said, "Yeah, okay, sure. Thanks, Joan." So I drive off and do that. I get home and on my answering machine, the low budget film I was going to AD got pushed back out to three months and rent was going to be coming due. I thought, "Well, maybe I'll just call Joan and just see what happens." And that was 44 years ago.

Cory:

That's incredible.

John:

To answer the second part of your question, it indeed is important to have a bit of the thespian in you because the hardest thing to do are actually footsteps, to give them life. And to do that, you have to kind of act, if you will, that part of whoever's on camera. Are they a little drunk? Are they the hero or heroine or are they the bad guy or the villain? You're trying to embody something that's not there. You're trying to give soul to something that's not there. And that really comes from acting. So yeah, there you go.

Cory:

Yeah, that's interesting. Anytime I've seen video, probably of you before we met, of course, on television of Foley being created, it always felt very performative to me, like an actor in a way. And almost no matter what sound is being created, it's always very interesting.

John:

Yeah, it is by definition. In fact, it's called Foley named after Jack Foley, that is, in deference to him. But it was not called that. It was called the sync effects or the sync sound effects or the sync stage, or actually the A stage was a stage where they did a lot of what we now call Foley. But the true definition of Foley is custom sound effects. That's a differential between a jet plane's engines going by and then somebody grabbing the throttles with their hands and pushing them forward to make sure they clear the obstacle in the distance. Grabbing the throttles is unique to that moment in that film on a per-film basis, whereas the engine spool up, that might come from a library, it could be used in many films. But Foley has uniqueness all unto itself, hence the, as you just said, the performance aspect to it.

Cory:

Do you recall seeing or hearing a film that really inspired you from an auditory perspective when you were sort of starting your career?

John:

Oh, I say 2001 would have to be one of those. Just the way it's portrayed. Space and all that sound kind of in the background and then bursting into the back into the craft. And there's no sound there. I mean, it really kind of leapt forward for me, and I'll tell you all this now, I didn't really pay that much attention to sound until I got into Foley. I was more interested in like, "Okay, how do you block this scene?"

But of course, as time goes along, in fact the measure for me, if I'm watching a film and I start picking apart the Foley, that means I don't like the film.

Meryn:

Is there a particular project looking at the portfolio of work that you've done in your 45 years that you hold as one of your favorite projects or a few different favorite projects, and what would be on that list?

John:

I'd say there are three or four if I could go into that many. One of the hardest ones was a picture called The Abyss and that dealt with a lot of underwater water. And that's extremely difficult because that's an all-encompassing sucking of the frequencies, if you will. So we had to really experiment with that to come up with what's going to work. And of course, James Cameron, you do not want to disappoint him. And I've got a story which I'll probably hold back, maybe I'll share it during the meet and greet. We'll see.

Cory:

Now I'm curious.

John:

Good. I’ll whet your appetite. Another one, and I'll kind of put those two together would be Back to the Future, and Who Framed Roger Rabbit,. We’d been in a bit of an arc where Foley was really not used that much. And during those years, I call them the Camelot years of Foley, we were given license to do everything.

So when the plutonium is being sucked into the plutonium motor, if you will, on the back of the DeLorean, that was us using glass and certain effects in even a blooping sound. If you take a cardboard tube and you kind of hit it on one end, it can make a [bloop sound]. Things like that, which typically you wouldn't do in a film.

And Who Framed Roger Rabbit, there again too. You had not only humans walking, but you had toons. So we had to do a whole section from them, not only their footsteps, but their props. And that was really just a whole heck of a lot of fun.

One that I think is very important, would be Schindler's List because that's a period of history which we should never forget, I think.

And of course these days talking about animation, Soul is a particular project which I'm absolutely thrilled with. It really embodied a lot of things that are difficult to do for animation, and they were just so beautifully done. And I'm not talking about our aspect per se, although we had a chance, again, we had the time to do it.

And of course, you could take a Marvel film, something big, over the top. Think Guardians of the Galaxy type thing. So those are fun.

And last but not least, there would be what I'll call the student film. And I did a film many years ago called In The Bedroom and Todd Field was the director. And that was something we really did kind of bootstrap that not having much money, if any. And we did that kind of in the off hours because I believe that I... I saw it and I knew this is an incredibly good piece. By the way, if you haven't seen it, I would recommend it. This guy's going on to direct Tár and he's up for six Academy Awards.

Cory:

When you first get a project, walk us through what that process is from the very beginning when you're just starting up until you get to “we're in the studio now, we're making the sounds”.

John:

Okay. Well, we like to beforehand get a look at the film if possible. If we can't look at the film, we would at least like to get notes from the director. And there's something called a supervising Foley editor, he, she, or they, that are given guidance by the supervising sound editor, sound designer. Like, "Okay, in reel one, we want to cover these feet. We want to have you do the pickup of the special sword, yada, yada, yada."

So they will impart that information to us and also talk about the design of it, so to speak. Let's say in animation, if it's a cat running around, if it's a main character, even if there's not a little license or bell or something on it, we might try to cheat something there to give it life. But is that contrary to what the director wants? And then when the day comes we start, we'll look at the reel again and we'll have what are called queue sheets. Which will detail out Heidi on channel one, Dave on channel two, Christo the Cat on three. It'll detail out what we need to do. Footsteps first, then prompts, and then movement, if any.

When I say movement, it could be a leather jacket, which is... Let's see, a Guardian's [of the Galaxy], they wear those type of things, so that would be a separate prop. Whereas if we're just covering general movement, let's say for an animated feature, we might just do a one pass cover.. And that's how we proceed during the day.

And it could be that the director said, "I'm not really sure how I want Sally's footsteps to sound there and overall the feeling of her character." So we might try variations, we might try tests. So we'll do test A, B, C, D and just send them off. We won't say what we used. Test A's a tennis shoe, test B is gloves. We'll just send them off and then the director or whoever will get back to us and give us their feedback and we'll go from there. And that'll be established throughout the film.

Cory:

And how closely are you working with the director? Or is there any case where you're working with the music composer or is that a pretty separate situation?

John:

Typically, music and Foley, the twain don't meet. The only time they do in a sense would be, let's say with David Fincher, because he's very involved in all aspects. So he'll make sure that Trent Reznor or whoever is doing the sound is involved with Ren Klyce, who's typically who he uses. And then they will filter down to us what they need.

So typically we'll start a film, let's say... I don't know any of the recent films. Strange World. And maybe a week into it, they'll fly up to Skywalker [Sound] and sit down with us and play some stuff back. They'll play back some of the Foley and review it and if there's any changes, let us know. Now, mind you, again, if there's something we think we're really not sure about, we'll send a test down first to make sure we're on the right track, because time is of the essence.

Meryn:

And what about in terms of how long a project might take? I mean, I know it's a process, but say for Strange World, for example, I mean are we talking weeks or is it a one week and you're done or is it months?

John:

No, it's typically two days, maybe three days a reel. Now, Strange World, if I recall correctly, I think that was 18 days, all told. Whereas the last picture we just did, unfortunately, I can't name it. It's volume three, I can say that. I think that was 20 days altogether. And Pixar films tend to be even longer, like 25 days, which is really necessary because again, in animation you can get away with things that you really can't do in live action to some degree, which is wonderful.

Meryn:

I love that you said 18 days was long because in my head I was like, "That feels very short." So I think that's just a good reference point.

John:

Well, I don't know that I'd say it's long, but I'd say that probably is enough. I mean, given our druthers for animation, any project that comes in, we'd like 25 days because then we know it's going to get covered. And we also work of course on commercials, on video games, and a little bit of television that is streaming. Worked on Andor. That was three or four days per episode, if I recall correctly, which was necessary. Again, because I have a lot going on there. But if you're a Star Wars fan, I highly recommend that.

Meryn:

Yes, we are big fans.

Cory:

Maybe one of the best Star Wars shows that's been put out there yet. In my opinion, anyway.

John:

I would agree and I think season two's going to be even better.

Cory:

That's great. Looking forward to it. I'm sure you won't give us any spoilers, but...

John:

My lips are sealed.

Cory:

Well, speaking of Star Wars, I mean, I'm definitely curious about your process when you're coming up with the sound for something that's totally fictional. A laser gun or a spaceship or something that doesn't exist.

John:

When I see something on the screen, I hear its sound, so then I try to translate in my mind, well how do I create that sound? So like you say, if I'm picking up a weapon that's specialized or loading it, what would that sound like? And is it a used world like Star Wars or is it a clean world like Star Trek?

I'm going to want to embody the world itself and stay within those contexts, within those confines, I should say. And of course, the great thing with Foley, there's no rules. The only rule is there are no rules. So you can try something. If it doesn't work, do something else. That's the beauty of it. And so that would be in essence the process.

Meryn:

Is this a professional hazard where you're just going about your day, you're in your kitchen and you put a cup down and then you hear something and you're just like, "Yeah, I need to write that down 'cause that sounds like..." Your friends and family just like, "Oh, John's always stopping what he's doing and he's writing down that piece of paper that fell, sounds like a bird's wings or..."

John:

Every once in a while, something will happen where something will be delivered or who knows what, and it gets pushed a certain way and moved a certain way and I go, "Wow, I'm going to have to remember that and take it into the stage." And conversely, when we're working on a film, if we establish an unusual prop, I'll take either a text note or a picture of it or even do a video. In fact, Shelley might stand over me and I'll explain what I'm doing, how I'm doing it so I can recreate it throughout the picture and vice versa for her.

Meryn:

Yeah. That's amazing. Is there something that's a really strange sound that you can recall...

John:

Well, I'll tell you the Abyss story then 'cause I think it was probably the most difficult sound, one of the most difficult sounds I've ever done. In the picture, Ed Harris is sitting down in a suit that's now going to have a helmet latched on, and it will fill up with liquid, literally starting at his chin, up over his face, over his head. And he'll then breathe that in.

And the reason for that is that it's going to allow him to go to deeper depths than one could without being crushed. Anyway, that's the theory behind it. So there I am, looking at this going, "Okay, now if I hold a helmet upside down and I take water and pour it in the top, it's not going to sound right. It's not going to sound like a muffled helmet, it's going to sound like [clear]. So how do I do that?

I thought and thought and thought. The night before our last day of Foley, I had a dream. And I dreamed how to do it.

And the way to do it was micing in a certain way, where I was stealing the ambience of a helmet and yet having a way to pour into something also that would approximate a helmet so I could literally get the proper going from low to high up over his head. And then on a separate channel, I took a straw and did a couple bubbles to come out of his nose. Strange job, I know.

Cory:

Are there any big differences in your mind when you're working on a film versus television versus a video game?

John:

Well, yes, certainly a video game has a routine all of its own. And that could be, are we doing the cinematics or are we doing the in-game assets? So if it's the cinematics, we approach it just like a feature film. If it's in-game assets, we might do Batman's cape or 2 or 300 variations of it, one after another. Or footsteps just landing on a surface, on metal. We might do 50 or 100 of those because again, during game play, randomly it'll be pulled from the bucket as to what particular sound that one step is.

So that's very intensive for a Foley artist team to do. Versus if you work on a feature, it's kind of tag team, if you will. And now mind you, television is a bit of a different beast, because not so much when I mentioned about streaming, at least at Skywalker, but television itself doesn't typically have a budget that's as friendly as one would hope.

Meryn:

You started talking about the team just there. I mean, on average, how many people are kind of working together on this? Because it sounds like... I mean, you mentioned earlier it's a team effort.

John:

Totally. The day starts as a team and it ends as a team because even if I'm doing footsteps, Shelley is either helping run the sheets with Scott or Scott's what we call driving. He's telling me where we're going to go,. But she might be making notes for shoes for herself or certainly for doing props. While she's out doing props, I'm in another area looking at a monitor, looking at the actual reel, making notes for myself going, "Okay, so this cut... Actually we're cheating the hand grab of Thor on Loki." we’ll not actually see it, it's just literally on the cut. So I'm going to approach it a little differently than I would if I see it. Or the communicator that's being picked up and is being flipped out that has to have a certain sound to it because I'm seeing some detail here.

Mind you, while she's out there working, then we switch. So she'll do the same thing. She'll be in the monitor checking her notes while I'm actually performing. So that's exactly what happens. Does that happen at all for all of Foleydom? It's hard to say. You have a younger generation that I don't know that knows the joys of having a team.

So point being, I think it's a lot harder in a sense for younger Foley people, especially if they're just working by themselves.

Meryn:

That leads very nicely into the next question that was going to be about advice for younger Foley artists. And maybe the advice is to find people, find your team. Is there any other advice or things you can think about for people who might be early on in their career or wanting to get into this field and they don't know how?

John:

Certainly if one wants to be a Foley artist, I think number one, they need a good background in acting. Take some acting classes. If you can, direct some one-act plays and read a lot. Read Shakespeare, read just a lot of good books and watch films. AFI top 100. Pick them apart. Why do you like this? Why do you not like this? Take a television show, like Friends, and then just put down something to walk on. Because typically Friends is people walking in from off stage and stopping or leaving or maybe walking upstairs, so you can practice getting sync, not worried about the sound that has to really come on a Foley stage.

And of course Mom and Dad out there won't necessarily like this as much. A half hour a day of a first-person shooter video game is okay because you're literally training your eyes not having to look down at your hands, which is extremely important for doing Foley, performing. And, you'd want to have aerobics in your life along with stretching. Aerobics-wise... Swimming, you can't beat that. All those things are really mission critical to be an excellent Foley artist.

Hopefully then you can get on with someone who can mentor you and learn from them. And then also try out your own thing because nobody has the actual answer. It's in a sense experimentation and you'll find your path that way and having a belief in yourself and also being open.

I didn't go out and start out to be a Foley artist, but look where I am. And I don't say this to dissuade anybody from being a Foley artist, I'm just saying just be open. Hopefully you'll have a love of it because I think it's no longer a job, it's a career. And then surround yourself with people that'll hold you up. Because you don't want to be with people that are jealous, either overtly or covertly. That'll do you no good.

And those are people you really don't need in your life because there are people that are going to want the best for you because they realize, "Hey, if we work together and you're doing great, I am too." And why not? Especially these days in this world. Good grief. Hey, I'm going to be 69 by the time I see you all. I've learned the four words, "Be happy, love fiercely." That's it.

Cory:

That's great advice. it's just really interesting and something I hadn't thought of until we met and started talking about this stuff, how the hand-eye coordination, the aerobics, the performance of it and all of that is just a very different viewpoint when it comes to post-production and even audio, to a degree, which is really, really fascinating. It's just so much exercise, which is great.

John:

It's helped a lot, I'll tell you.

Meryn:

I have a burning question from my five-year-old who we watched Strange World for the fifth time last night. What sound does Splat come from? The character?

John:

Splat comes from many different parts. Now, we did some of the footsteps... Let's see, I guess you could say Splat, Foley-wise would come from a bit of a wet shammy, but that's a very small part of what Splat was.

Meryn:

The noises that come from Splat might be my favorite in that film because it's adorable. So everyone should go watch it. We can’t thank you enough for talking to us John!

John:

Well, I wish everybody a wonderful day.

John:

Yeah, absolutely. This was a great way to have a Thursday. Can’t wait to see you in July!

Mack Garrison 5/1/23 Mack Garrison 5/1/23

Takeover Tuesday with Kyle Harter

An interview with Kyle Harter: a freelance 2D motion designer based in Orlando, FL..

Interviewer: Bella Alfonsi.

Read time: 5min

Bella:

Kyle! Thanks so much for participating in our Takeover Tuesday series. For those who are not familiar with you or your work, please give us a lil' intro.

Kyle:

Hey there! My name is Kyle Harter, and I’m a freelance 2D motion designer based in Orlando, FL. I add custom 2D motion and design to branded content that drives engagement with my client's intended audience. My work has spanned across explainer videos, digital advertising, commercials, live events, UI/UX, and Film & TV.

Bella:

How do you think going to college has influenced your creative path? Do you think having formal training makes any difference in getting a job in the motion design industry compared to being self-taught?

Kyle:

I went to the University of Central Florida in Orlando. I’m completely self-taught, and didn’t go the traditional route through animation and design courses. However, I did go through the film program in college. I believe that experience really helped me to cultivate and curate my taste, while learning the traditional production process. Of which, I pour lots of time and effort to feeding it and keeping it fresh.

I can only speak for myself here, but I think the self-taught route really teaches a form of discipline that you might not be as quick to in a structured program. You have to be extra guarded of your time and intentions to learning a skillset to step-up your career. I am a bit jealous of the students who go through the formal training route, as there are more opportunities for networking, learning from industry professionals in person, and of course, access to all of the fun tools.

Bella:

As someone with several years of experience in the industry, how do you think it's changed over the years? Is there anything you're excited or worried about for the future of motion design?

Kyle:

The industry has changed in a lot of beautiful ways during my time. I think that it’s become one of the more welcoming industries that I’ve been privy to experiencing. From the YouTube tutorials/courses, to the slack/discord groups, and the industry legends who offer quick chats (Ryan Summers) and mentorship, I felt like I was offered free admission to make really cool shit, and have people offer constructive criticism and helpful feedback.

Also, the cost of entry is a lot lower than it used to be with the availability of affordable/free tools.

In terms of concern for the future, there’s the obvious elephant in the room of AI. There’s exciting aspects and concerning aspects of it. At the end of the day though, I do believe the real impact of AI’s implementation is in the user’s hands. There’s a certain amount of responsibility there. I’m excited to see some of the technical parts of our jobs being sped up or automated. That whole process might change the job description of some roles, but at the end of it, it’s the human who has to use it in a professional and ethical way.

Bella:

2D design is your specialty, but you also do some toolkitting, templating, and system development. How did you get into this side of animation and how has it affected your workflow?

Kyle:

I think I got into it the same way I got into learning AE years ago, FEAR. Code, like AE, was always so scary to me because it was a different way of working than the traditional approach of slapping keyframes on a timeline. There was just something about it that motivated me to learn it. Maybe it was to be more in control of something abstract like animation? Who knows haha. Through a lot of time, practice, and asking other smart people lots of questions, I was able to grasp a decent understanding of it, and apply it to my workflow.

It’s affected my workflow in a really efficient way. It helps me to think about creating looks procedurally and with editibility in mind. With that in mind, I use expressions, essential properties/graphics panel, and scripting to automate any part of my workflow. It helps me shut off my computer sooner at night I like to think.

*Frame from Kyle’s motion work with Cisco.*

Bella:

What made you decide to go freelance full-time? Any advice for someone trying to do the same?

Kyle:

Well I’ve always moonlit as a freelancer when I had full-time gigs. That life was always alluring to me too. The ability to choose what projects you took on, and you could really be in the driver’s seat of your career path are what really drew me in.

In terms of actually taking the leap, I was actually thrown off a cliff into it. I was furloughed in July ’22 from my previous studio gig. I loved the people there, but I had always had this dream of going out on my own. I was resourceful enough to build up a healthy savings during my full-time employment. That helped me jumpstart the business, while still having health insurance until I left for good in September ’22.

My advice would be five-pronged there:

1. Build up a runway of expenses and then some. I’d say minimum of 3 months if possible. We all know how long invoices can take to get paid even if you’re working immediately.
2. Network. Network. Network. I can’t stress this enough. Make sure when you engage people it’s not transactional. Be a human. Get to know people. Let them know what you’re good at, passionate about, and what you don’t like doing.
3. Prioritize your mental health. You will get lonely. You will get stressed about money. You will encounter hardship. If you’re consistently checking in on yourself and giving yourself some space to feel these things, then you’ll be able to make healthier decisions for yourself when it comes to who you work with/for
4. Get a good accountant, and don’t cheap out on it. I sleep a lot better at night knowing the business side of things is in good hands, and I’m not scrambling while trying to outsmart the IRS.
5. Study a bit of personal finance. You’re on your own now. So you have a bit more autonomy in what you do with your money. Reading/studying this can really set you up for future financial decisions.

Bella:

How do you set yourself apart from fellow talented artists when pitching for a project/reaching out to work with a studio?

Kyle:

Your portfolio is always a good indication of the kind of work you’re interested in or are capable of. So I like to think mine is fairly clear in that aspect. That’s half of it though. The other half, the human half, might actually carry some more weight at the end of the day. I stress over-communication, delivering on promises, and anticipating other’s needs when it comes to working on a team. It’s been said before, but a lot of people would rather hire a mid-level artist who carry themselves in a professional way than hire a superstar who is just a giant ball of chaos and bad attitude to work with.

Bella:

Where do you find inspiration? How do you navigate creative burnout?

Kyle:

Like a lot of artists, I find inspiration in everything around me. More specifically, I love art books, films/tv, and interior design too. Especially when people prioritize function over aesthetic. That guides a lot of my inspiration in the wild.

Yeah creative burnout is a doozy. In the past I didn’t do a great job of it. I always thought everything I did had to serve the work I was doing in my 9-5. Now, since I am freelance, I’m able to take intentional time off without guilt. I also feel more joy about just making stuff for the fun of it. Especially when it’s not meant for the reel/portfolio. I just get to have fun and mess up without worrying about meeting a client’s expectation.

Also, therapy is such a healing and helpful process. I can’t recommend it enough.

Bella:

What's your proudest moment in your career thus far?

Kyle:

I’ve been fortunate to work with a bunch of great people, make cool stuff, and even win a few awards. However, I think my proudest moment is to go out on my own, and find success in the form of having control of my life. Not to knock anyone in a staff position, but being a freelancer has been the best fit for my lifestyle and mental health.

Bella:

What's your favorite kind of project to work on and why?

Kyle:

I love a great technical challenge fueled by phenomenal design and stress-free project management. It could be the most corporate thing on the planet, but if there’s great design, fun technical challenges, and really helpful producers then it’s a success in my book. I can’t stress the importance of producers and project managers enough. Please be nice to them. They have one of the toughest jobs out, and we don’t see much of what they go through.

*Still from the motion graphic spot for Maksoi.*

Bella:

What are you looking forward to this year? Any final words of wisdom for our audience?

Kyle:

I’m looking to try a bunch of different projects in my first full year of freelancing. I’d like to meet a lot of great people, and learn a bit more about managing the business side of things. Other than that, I just want to enjoy the ride I’m on. It’s been great to me so far.

Final wisdom: Remember, you always have a choice in what projects you take on or what direction you head in. Life is short. Do your best to make the decisions that can help you have a fulfilling and rewarding life.

Mack Garrison 4/28/23 Mack Garrison 4/28/23

Meet the speakers: Cabeza Patata

An interview with Cabeza Patata: A company born from a love of characters.

Q&A hosted my Meryn Hayes & Ashley Targonski.

Read time: 15min

Meryn:

Welcome! We'd love it if you could introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about the studio.

Abel:

So I'm Abel…

Katie:

And, I'm Katie, and we set up the studio Cabeza Patata almost five years ago now. It started as just something that we were having fun doing together, we were just making some drawings, we started making some murals in the street, and we started putting everything together slowly and then we started to realize that we had a nice body of work and so we made a webpage for ourselves and then things just really grew from there.

Abel:

Probably in the beginning, the time in which we were doing it just for fun, it felt like a long time, but it was around six months of trying and experimenting. And I think by the time we started putting things out online, we were doing something that was looking very different.

Katie:

But then we made a bit of a change, I'll probably get more into this later, but we decided to open up a gallery space in Barcelona. Because we said okay, "We'd like to make more physical pieces."

So as well as making the 3D digital illustrations, animations, we also started creating more things out of wood and more puppets, giant characters, all of these crazy ideas that we had also had from the beginning. And then we made even more changes.

Abel:

Yeah…and after leaving for an entire year, traveling in a camper van, we are now focusing on physical art, so it's been a long evolution in the five years.

Meryn:

I love that. I love the idea of digital and tactical, and that y'all have tag-teamed that and involved both elements. I think we're so digital these days and there's just something relieving about going back to something that's so much more tactile, and you can feel it or see it and touch it. So that's interesting.

Abel:

I think it's completely true. I think one of the problems is that when people want to jump on the computer and create 3D art without ever even having taken a photographic camera and taken a photo of something they have created. And I think you learn so much about how to light a scene, and the difference between different camera lenses. There are so many steps that you can learn before jumping into just doing things with the computer. I think it has influenced everything we do.

Katie:

And then 3D sometimes as well influences the physical arts. So it's always going back and forth. But we always say to people, because people are always, "Oh, what advice do you give?" And it's always do what you like and then it'll be different and it'll be good. So that's what we always try to do if you begin.

Meryn:

Great advice. So how did you discover motion design or animation?

Abel:

So our backgrounds are pretty different. I studied media in university. I'm from Spain, and I moved to London just after finishing uni. I was 22 years old, and I started working in some little production companies doing animation, motion graphics. I knew a bit about AfterEffects and I started getting my first jobs doing that, and I learned on the job.

I didn't have any training in any software, but because I had studied media, I felt confident just learning on the internet and I had good foundations I think. And a few years later I found myself learning a bit of 3D, but Katie's background is very different.

Katie:

I was studying French and politics in university and then I realized I also really like making things and I like drawing things so what could I do? I decided to do this summer course and that's where we ended up meeting. But then it was many years later really, after I actually went to study illustration as well in Barcelona, and then when Abel was starting to think about 3D, I was more starting to think about character design and illustration. And so we started to combine those two things and learn together.

Meryn:

That's great. I also love hearing when people are set on a path like French and politics, and then going back to what you said about finding what you love and doing that, they pivot and do something else. Or I think sometimes we get so caught up growing up, and being told, "Find what you want to do for the rest of your life." But there are stories of success if you follow what you really enjoy doing. I think people need to hear that, so they don't feel so trapped in that decision of, do I do what I've been doing? Or do I try something new?

Katie:

Yeah, for sure. And you can make that change anytime. People in my year in uni were like, "It's already too late. We've already done a four year degree." And that was only age 22. And then a few years later people now say, "Oh now I can't do it now because I've done five years on my job." But I think you can do it any time. Obviously you need to take into account financial issues and stability and things. But especially in our job, I mean we started bit by bit still working on the side and then when things grew enough that was all that we were doing. I just enjoyed it.

Abel:

I was starting in my career when I started dating Katie, she was still in uni, and I was very surprised about how her degree was so much more precise, studying language and studying politics, you had to write very detailed papers, that you were taking everything that you were doing very seriously in that formal university way. And I remember coming from my degree in media, we would not take those types of things as seriously. But then in reality when you move into professional work, to be able to write correctly, express yourself, be very serious about how you communicate yourself, I think has helped us massively.And many times, people that work with us say after projects, "Oh we love working with you guys, because you are very serious in the way you communicate. You express everything, you save us time by documenting things properly, explaining your decisions." All those things are very important as well. So whatever you have studied, you can apply it.

Ashley:

As you said earlier, you're entering your fifth year of business, which is really exciting. Founded in 2018 and only a year later in 2019 y'all were going to conferences, you were starting to get your name out there and very quickly y'all were winning awards. How has that quick ramp up and growth path been?

Katie:

I mean, pretty crazy to be honest. I think it's been a really amazing five years and I think when you are living in it, I guess you don't realize how fast everything's going. But yeah, when you think about it you realize how short a time it is.

Abel:

Yeah, it was very intense. I think that especially the first two years, so many things happened. As you were saying, the year after, the second year of starting the studio we were speaking in very big festivals in front of a lot of people. And so we didn't really have much time to think about those things, and I think that's why, as Katie was saying, we were trying to rethink a lot of what we do and the position in which we are operating.

One of the things that created in us was a lot of anxiety about how we are going to be able to continue doing work that is exciting? You go, they invite you to a conference and people ask you, "Oh what are you going to do next?" And then you think, "Oh I don't know, I'm just starting, I'm trying things out."

So I think that for us to be able to slow down the machine and try to look at things with perspective has helped us a lot. That's why we're doing a lot of physical work right now, because we reminded ourselves of the fact that that's why we started. We found the clients asking for the same thing again and again, and it didn't feel that the clients were getting tired of it, but definitely we were getting tired of it.

Ashley:

That's great to establish those boundaries. Also, as a couple running this business, I bet work is very prevalent in your lives, so understanding that balance between what is work and what is actual life stuff is very necessary.

Katie:

Yeah, I think it helps a lot though, because I think that we can be very honest with each other. I'm sure other business owners are as well, but because we were a couple for a long time before we started working together, you can also sort of tell if something's not feeling right or you can be very honest all the time about it. But for sure I think having clear boundaries and knowing when you're at work and when you're not at work is the key really.

Abel:

Yeah, physically separating your working space from your living space is very important. Especially if you are working being a couple at the same time, because if not, it would just follow us everywhere.

Meryn:

Yeah, I think that's something that's been very apparent after the last few years, the boundaries being blurred going into the pandemic of work and home are one thing. I have a five-year-old daughter, so parenthood and life and work were all squished into one.

Abel:

Yeah, definitely. I think dividing your day in slots and saying, "Okay, after this time I'm just not going to do work." Or, "I'm going to move to a different task." So we try to do the most boring stuff really early in the morning, do emails at nine in the morning and then we don't do emails after, unless it's something, some emergency or something. But we try to organize the day a lot like that. Our work is a creative job in which you need that creative energy, it's not only about not falling asleep, it's also about having a brain that is giving you something beautiful that you're enjoying.

Meryn:

Yeah, yeah. I think what you mentioned about just how quickly everything's happened for you the past few years, just reminds me of defining what success looks like, because for so many people who might look at your website and be like, you have great clients and you have great work. But again, going back to what you said about what makes you happy, and you needed a break from that and recognizing that, I think a lot of people have a hard time always looking for the next thing that makes them successful.

Abel:

I think as well we had a really privileged position, or it was really good for us so early on being invited to so many conferences and festivals because we spoke to many people, and many people at a studio that we completely admired for years. And one of the things that we noticed that was happening with everyone we're speaking to is that they would say, "Oh I missed the early days when I was actually doing the job, and now I turn my studio into a big machine in which I don't do the things anymore. I'm managing."

Katie:

I always thought, "Oh it'd be so cool to work with this client. Oh that will surely make me happy." But that definitely runs out, or maybe isn't even really real anyway. But especially if you're choosing to do a creative job, I think the thing that actually is fulfilling is actually making something that you care about, and that's really nice. I think the satisfaction has to come from the actual making, and then the results of it.

So I think if you are thinking, "Oh I'm working with all these big clients, but I'm not inspired by the work." That makes sense.

Abel:

And also from a business point of view, sometimes we found that people grew their companies to really, really big sizes. It's not even necessarily profitable. But the typical studio that has 20, 30 people has so many associated costs, that we personally want to be able to continue creating the work, and we are convinced that we can still make it profitable in the long term. Still take on big commercial companies when there's a need for them, but try to avoid doing those monotonous jobs that might not pay well.

Meryn:

So I feel like I have to ask, and it doesn't have to be a client since we just established that dream client isn't maybe something to gear towards, but what would you say is a dream project or something that you wanted to do, whether it's a type, or a medium, or a client?

Katie:

Well, right now we're just starting to think about maybe we'd like to make giant mechanical characters, maybe out of wood or metal, but things that the audience can come and maybe turn a lever and a giant character's mouth opens or arms move or something. So something really magical that you wanted to do since you were little, kind of thing.

Abel:

And I think for a commercial campaign on the other hand, I think the dream client for us is always the one that is very, very final. When you are talking to the final destiny of the project. I think that the best commercial campaign we've done is the campaign we did with Spotify. And the reason why that's the best one is not because suddenly we were more inspired, or we tried more than with other clients, it's because we were working with a team in New York that was the team that was going to deliver the campaign. We were working directly with the Spotify team and they even came to Barcelona to see us, and we had meetings with them and we were having this direct communication and they understood what we wanted to do and they trusted us.

So many other times we thought things were going to go that way, but when there are so many people in the middle that message gets lost. And we are trying as much as possible to avoid those people in the middle, but obviously the entire industry is made on advertisement agencies and representation agencies, and all of those extra steps. And once in a while we get the chance to work with a client like Spotify or Apple that comes directly to us, but doesn't happen all the time.

Meryn:

So can you talk us through how that Spotify project came to be?

Abel:

Do you remember how it happened? We got an email one Christmas saying, "Hi, we are from Spotify, blah blah blah, and we would like to do one illustration or something." And then they completely disappeared.

Katie:

Yeah. Until six months later.

Abel:

But we continued sending them emails, because we thought, "Oh we had the email of someone and they had copied someone else." So we continued sending them the emails and updating them with things that we were doing. And the emails were not bouncing, but nobody was answering. And then six months later they came.

Katie:

Again, at that time they were very, very unique in how they were and they really liked our style, and internally everyone decided that was the one. I think that for the most part for Spotify and for other big campaigns that we have, it's really self-promotion and having a big social media presence. We post all of our projects on Behance. We explain everything, and we notice whenever we post there that we get a lot of views and I think it's a lot of people from the industry, and a lot of potential clients are looking there.

Meryn:

Yeah, if you think about how much work goes into creating a set of characters, it's a lot. And so it's nice not only for you all but for other people to see your process as well. I'd love to hear about the Spotify campaign, did they come to you with a pretty filled out brief of like, "This is what we want?"

Katie:

So they had some clear things from the beginning, that was basically they wanted to have different characters represent different moods that you feel when you listen to music. So how are we going to do that? And then they said the character should be the same throughout all of the videos, and should be gender neutral, age neutral and race neutral. Because they wanted to go everywhere, but that was it.

Abel:

Yeah, yeah. That was about it.

Katie:

And so we were like, "Okay, we'll come up with some ideas." And we sent them to them and then they came up with some ideas and we sort of had a nice back and forth during the beginning. It was like we never really went backwards. I think that was why it was such a good campaign too, because they were excited as well. So energy was always going forwards. It was never like, "Oh, can we go back to that thing that you did two weeks ago?" And you're like, "I don't know if I kind of saved over that file or something perhaps, and I thought we left it." So it was always going forward and making things better.

Ashley:

Where did the name for Cabeza Patata come from?

Katie:

Everyone always asks us that and we don't have a very clear response. We just found it funny I guess, I was learning Spanish and I was just, I'd always ask, "Oh what does this mean? How do you say this?" And one day, I don't know why I thought about it, but in Toy Story I was like, "Oh is Mr. Potato Head called Senor Cabeza Patata." And Abel found it super funny.

Abel:

It's funny. It's not even translated like that, it wouldn't even translate like that, doesn't make sense. You would say an article in the middle. And-

Katie:

You said his name is Mr. Patato.

Abel:

Yeah, we call him Mr. Patato. So it didn't make sense, but the name Cabeza Patata sounded a bit in my head like Hakuna Matata sounds a bit like that, so it has something funny.

Meryn:

That's great. I'd love to hear about Patata School. Tell us what was the start of that?

Katie:

So we set that up only last March. It hasn't even been a year officially of the school being live yet, but we've got a really nice community. Right now we're about 800 or a little bit more than 800 students in school, and we keep creating content and courses, we're about to have our first livestream.

Abel:

The idea of Patata School has started, connected to every decision we've done, trying to be more independent and taking things by ourselves, we knew that a lot of people were doing courses within other platforms and we got contacted by a lot of platforms to do courses with them. And because we've been teaching in universities and we really liked that, we didn't feel that just giving the content to another platform was going to work for us.

We set it up not knowing how well it was going to go, but it's amazing. I think we're going to cross before finishing the year into 1000 active members in there, which is, it's insane. We are so happy. And it's turning into the way in which, as well, we can make money without having to focus so much on commercial work. And as we progress now into doing more physical work, we want to incorporate that more as well inside Patata School and almost turn it into this school in which you can learn computer programs and illustration, digital illustration, but also we want to make a community of crafters and people making the stuff with their hands and learning which tools to get and how to construct and to use materials. So that's the challenge for this year.

*Patata School Complete Character Animation by Cabeza Patata*

Katie:

And it's cool to do because people in the school suggest ideas for courses. They say, "Oh, I'd really like to learn specifically this thing." And then we'd make a course in that. So it's really nice that you know directly that what you make is going to be appreciated, and to see, and people share their results and things in there, which is really nice. So yeah, it's a much more hands-on, non-commercial space way of doing things.

Meryn:

Okay, cool. When y'all have a making characters out of wood and mechanical class, I am signing up for that course. That sounds fun.

I was looking on your website, and I love the line, "We believe characters can change the world." I think that's so true and now maybe more than ever. Talk through that a little bit.

Abel:

Yeah. We think as well that character design is so on the foundation of how we understand, how everyone does understand art. Even if it looks a bit like a very niche thing. I like saying this thing that when you are a kid, that's the first thing you do when you get a pencil, you draw your family and you even put a little face in the sun or in your house. You put faces everywhere, because everything is a character when you're small, and it's so relevant. And even kids' drawings can be analyzed to show how they understand the structure, the structure within the family, the distance they put between one person and another.

So all of those things still translate when you are an adult. So if you have a lot of stereotypes and you have things that are in your brain that end up appearing in illustration, we see that every day. People might think, "Oh no, that's not relevant anymore." But it is not true, in the world of character design, we are still having a lot of stereotypes being applied again and again. We read a lot of books about animation. Most of the best books of animation are classic books from the big Walt Disney artists, and they're full of gender stereotypes. It's unbelievable.

You read it and you think, "Wow, this is insane that this is how gender was represented in animation for so many years." So I think there's a massive opportunity to change those things.

Katie:

Definitely. And to an extent I think it still continues to be as well, because there's such an imbalance in the industry of gender and general diversity. Talking in festivals like in your festival, you make a really big effort, to actually make sure you have diversity in the lineup. But in so many big festivals there isn't that at all, and so many big brands and things as well, maybe that might feel that they should have a responsibility more to push that. But you might go to a Adobe Live event and just see the same five 45 year old white guys again and again and again. And you think, why is it like that?

Meryn:

Yeah, exactly. I mean that's definitely something that's been important to us both in 2021 and this year, is trying to be representative of the people who are attending. So making sure that we're getting a variety of perspectives and across different industries. So I think it's really focusing on representing the community who is such a diverse, wonderful group of people, and making sure that we highlight that.

Katie:

Yeah. In that way as well, I think inviting more people to join the animation, or design, or illustration industry in general. And if I think the more voices there are, the more interesting things are being made too. But another thing in the school is that we have students from over 70 different countries and the stuff that people make is actually really different depending on their country. And we're always trying to say that, in the tutorials we say, "Try, instead of making this house, why don't you make a house how it would look in your country?" And so people post the specific objects or foods, or anything that they've made that's from their country and explain what it is, and suddenly you think, "Oh, actually I literally have never even seen”, like the other day, "A 3D Dominican house before. And now I have. And that's the first time she has made it and she made it look so nice." So I think that's also part of the key of being a designer.

Abel:

It's been amazing how just growing in our social media and having grown our audience during these five years, we have people from all over the place. We love that, and it's been so interesting. As Katie is saying as well, having that in the forums in the school, which is a place that is a bit cozier. Sometimes places like Instagram feels like everything goes so fast and there's so much noise that we miss messages and notifications, but within the school we have that culture space. It's been very, very nice to see how diverse it has been in there.

Ashley:

What are things that y'all think through when you're trying to design a character that, like for Spotify, should be gender neutral or not specific to one group?

Abel:

When we are making personal projects, and also with clients, I think the best thing that you can do is just go around, and look at what you see everywhere in the street and try to represent that. And I think that sometimes we don't realize how diverse a place like London, you know, has a lot of people, people have different ages.

Age is a massive thing in character design. We're watching TV and we are used to every single character, no matter how graphical or non graphical they are to be the same 20 to 35 years old. And that's what is susceptible to be, and obviously people are going to be older and still consume products and still listen to Spotify... And we are trying all the time to represent that, even before the client brings it up. I think it's important when you do a pitch to put it out and to have characters that might be on a wheelchair, and you can put that in a pitch or in a proposal without the client having said so, because they never said that the character had to be fully able.

Katie:

Yeah. And on the whole, no one's going to say to you, "Oh, can we take the character out of the wheelchair?" Because one, there's no point. And two, that would just be such a horrible thing to say. So generally if you try and push more diversity, it's going to happen. And so it's up to you to push it. I think what Abel's saying, sometimes it's a bit complicated, this concept of, oh, can we make it gender neutral or age neutral? Because what is that? I think that's just one of many different ways of being, so what we like to do in all of our work is just try and make everybody represented.

Abel:

But also even on parts that might not be directly related to people, if you represent objects, to represent things that connect to your life and things that you love, it's something we need to do all the time. And even ourselves, I remember last year we had to design a post box and we made the post box look like one of these post box you guys have in America. I've never seen one of those in my life, and I make it like a 3D, those post box and with that little thing that goes up and down when the postman comes, we don't have that. They don't look like that in the UK. They don't look like that in Spain, but somehow we have that in our brain. So it's good to come out of that and start, the best thing is just go on the street, look how people look, look how your city looks and just put it in your work.

Meryn:

Yeah, spot on. Well, this was so much fun. We're just so excited to have y'all at the bash and we're really excited to meet you in person in July!

Abel & Katie:

Thank you so much, yeah, really nice to meet you both.

Mack Garrison 4/24/23 Mack Garrison 4/24/23

Takeover Tuesday with Jake Sojcher

An interview with Jake Sojcher: a motion designer and visual artist.

Q&A with Jake Sojcher.

Read time: 5min

Matea Losenegger:

Hey Jake! Thank you for taking part in our Tuesday Takeover series. Can you introduce yourself and your work?

Jake Sojcher:

Happy to be a part of it! I am a motion designer and visual artist working primarily with the Adobe Creative Suite, using After Effects, Photoshop, etc. I’m also just generally an explorer, always jumping around between various hobbies relating to art and music.

Matea Losenegger:

What shaped your path into motion design and pursuing a creative career?

Jake Sojcher:

I’ve always loved making things. As a child, I would spend countless hours building spaceships and fortresses with Legos. As I got older, I took various art and music lessons. In high school, I was playing the drums, recording, and mixing audio. Then in college, I got really into photography and video production, so I became a media studies major. I really wanted to pursue a creative career, but I was afraid. I had heard things about how difficult it can be to make it in the creative fields. I was shy and I didn’t have the confidence in my ability to put myself out there. I thought maybe marketing would be a safer creative path, but the only aspect of my one marketing internship that excited me was when I got to assist with a video shoot at the office. After college, I was scraping by on small freelance video gigs, and feeling very unsure if I could make this work. I eventually found a one month temp job editing videos for a local production company. They liked my work, and it turned into a full-time gig. There I got to learn a lot more about the various aspects of post-production. There was another editor on staff who handled motion graphics, and I thought what he was creating was super cool. So I started watching After Effects tutorials on YouTube and asking him for pointers. Eventually when he left, I became the motion graphics guy and the rest is history.

Matea Losenegger:

What inspired your decision to freelance full time and how has the transition been going?

Jake Sojcher:

After a few years at my production company job, I felt like I was ready for new challenges and opportunities for growth. I would periodically apply for jobs at larger companies, but felt discouraged when I consistently wouldn’t hear back. Another coworker of mine had gone freelance, and the idea sounded enticing, but I was also afraid of giving up the stability. Things really changed once the pandemic hit. Until then, I was still very much splitting my time between editing and motion design. But once it became hard to shoot videos in person, I started having opportunities to do even more with motion graphics and really leveled up my skills. I also met my wonderful partner, Lyndsey, on Hinge during the pandemic, and we eventually moved in together. Having a partner who had a steady job, and who gave me lots of encouragement, helped make the idea of freelance feel much more feasible. Then I read The Freelance Manifesto by Joey Korenman, and that was the final push I needed. I left my job, and my boss became my first client. Business was pretty slow at first, but I managed to scrape by. By the end of 2022, after many months of emailing and reel-tweaking, I finally started getting booked more consistently. Work can still ping-pong pretty quickly between very busy and very quiet, so I’m still learning to trust the process. I keep reminding myself that the ebb and flow is just part of freelance life. Overall, I’m really enjoying the lifestyle and the freedom to skip the commute and set my own hours. I especially enjoy having more control over my professional destiny, feeling like my efforts can quickly lead to greater opportunities. I’m really excited to see where the coming years take me.

Matea Losenegger:

From animation to drawing music, photography, and video, you have a pretty diverse skillset - is there a particular medium or type of work you would still like to explore?

Jake Sojcher:

Yes! I’m currently working on building up my illustration skills. I’ve been attending a lot of figure drawing sessions and trying to practice almost every day. Considering most of my work is on a computer, it’s nice to switch it up and spend time with good old pencil and paper. But I’m also working on digital illustration with Procreate and Adobe Illustrator as well. Most of the work I’m hired for involves picking apart graphic art provided by clients and bringing it to life. I’ve dabbled in graphic design enough to scrape things together from scratch when I need to, but I am still learning. I definitely want to be able to animate even more of my own original artwork, both for clients and my own personal projects.

*Some characters from Jake’s Crossriver Funding Announcement video.*

Matea Losenegger:

As someone with a lot of creative interests, do you find it important to experiment or create work for fun?

Jake Sojcher:

Oh absolutely! One of the big reasons I wanted to go freelance was to free up more time to work on my own projects. I feel very fortunate to be able to do creative work for a living, but there’s also way more I want to do outside of client work. Personal projects are great for building skills I can use professionally, but also for finding my own fulfillment as an artist. It’s nice to have free reign sometimes to make something weird, epic, or silly, with no directions to follow.

Matea Losenegger:

A lot of your work has a very distinct ethereal aesthetic. What inspired this visual flare and where do you seek inspiration from as a whole?

Jake Sojcher:

First off, I love ethereal sounding dream pop bands like the Cocteau Twins, My Bloody Valentine, and Beach House, so that’s definitely a part of it. I’m also influenced by Vaporwave and Cyberpunk inspired art that I see online. I like the use of gritty urban settings decked out with vibrant neon colors. It feels so cinematic with a sense of danger, mystery, and intrigue. I started playing with Photoshop to add a similar flare to photos that I take around the city. Then to take it even further, I started bringing some of my edits to life in After Effects as well.

*Jake has been developing art style that fuses photography and Photoshop to create surreal cityscapes.*

Matea Losenegger:

Do any of your projects stand out as a favorite?

Jake Sojcher:

I made a silly little animation of an octopus riding the subway, which was my first time trying to implement a character I drew into one of my photo edits. I also recently made an animation of my home office setup, where I animated all the stickers on my laptop as well as various elements of my desk. I even composited a screen recording of the After Effects project onto my monitor in the video to get extra meta with it. I think that came out pretty cool, so I’m proud of that one.

Matea Losenegger:

When it comes to client work, what sorts of assignments pique your interest?

Jake Sojcher:

Recently I’ve done a couple projects I’ve enjoyed with an ad agency called Terri & Sandy. One project was for an organization called Strands for Trans. Their mission is to build a network of trans-friendly barber shops and hair salons around the world. It’s nice to do work for a cause that I can see is doing a lot of good. The other project was for Sennheiser, which was cool for me as an audio nerd and a long time fan of their headphones. The ad featured Dee Snider from Twisted Sister. In terms of future projects, I would love to be able to work on more music related graphics. As a big music fan I’d like to work with local bands to create graphics for music videos, animated album covers, or stage projections.

*Dee Snider - Extended Commercial for Sennheiser.*

Matea Losenegger:

What advice would you give to aspiring creatives?

Jake Sojcher:

Don’t underestimate the importance of persistence. It can take a lot of reaching out to people and following up before you hit your stride. Also never stop learning and building up your abilities. You can learn just about anything on YouTube these days. If you have skills to offer, and you keep putting yourself out there eventually people will take notice, even if it takes longer than you initially hoped.

Matea Losenegger:

What are you looking forward to in 2023? Are there any creative endeavors you're excited about?

Jake Sojcher:

I feel like my drawing skills are really starting to come along and I’m excited to find new ways to implement them into my work. I’ve also really started to hit my freelancing stride, so I’m really excited to see where the year takes me.

Mack Garrison 4/17/23 Mack Garrison 4/17/23

Takeover Tuesday Reece Parker

An interview with Reece Parker: self-taught Animation Director and illustrator.

Q&A with Reece Parker.

Read time: 5min

Matea Losenegger:

Hi Reece! Thank you for contributing your time to our Tuesday Takeover series. Can you tell us a little about yourself and your work?

Reece Parker:

Of course! Thanks for having me. I'm Reece, self-taught Animation Director and illustrator. Subscriber to the famed philosophy "fake it til you make it'. My work leans hand drawn with dark color palettes, but I dive into briefs that range the full spectrum of 2D - and love it all. The more corporate, the more bright and poppy. The more Reece, the more scribbly and dark. 2 sides to one coin really.

Outside of work, I'm a husband and dad to 3 beautiful and intelligent children (Not sure if they actually have my DNA). I also grew up skateboarding religiously, which persists as the foundation of my own personal culture. Fail, start again, fall, get up, on and on. These things influence my work consistently.

Matea Losenegger:

You've been well known in this industry for a while now. How much has motion design changed since you started and what are your thoughts on its future?

Reece Parker:

I discovered and jumped into the industry in early 2016. It was a breeding ground of beautiful and inspired work, from every direction you looked. It was perfect for myself (and young artists like me), with an ambition to join the ranks of those considered great in our field. It was a beautiful time looking back. Empty bank account mind you - but a bursting industry and one that accepted me almost right away.

In 2023, it's still full of beautiful work, but you might have to dig a bit deeper to find it. Industry expanding, client deliverables following suit. But close-knit community might be shrinking a bit. That might be my own small perspective as I become more and more my own island. Or, maybe that's the natural progression of things. This industry is fascinating and beautiful, but maybe less curated and served up on a platter. It has certainly been a shifting landscape for the past several months.

Technology is doing its best to shake up working artists at the current point in time. We will see how that progresses, but I for one stand firmly in the "not worried...yet" camp. It's funny, I was just chatting with a legacy artist in our industry, whose work was among the first of which I was exposed to, about how we might be affected and the validity of our industry moving forward. We all share commonalities but have different perspectives.

To summarize my thoughts on that convo:

Real clients that deserve our protection are the ones that value our input and collaboration. Skillsets might be outsourced, but tastes and ideas are best formulated as a team and in collaboration with clients - relationships. This is something that isn't replaced by technology and is actually the most valuable. For clients that wish for cheaper, easier, faster, and shittier - those clients might flock to AI. Great! Let them. They also have to know exactly what it is they want, how many times have you encountered a client with that certainty..? Taste, ideas, expertise, and collaboration stand as powerful pillars in our industry - despite the tools.

I may eat my words, but Im comfortable with that if it comes in the future. Screens are king, and content is not decreasing in demand.

Matea Losenegger:

As an expert in cel, what makes a compelling animation or character movement?

Reece Parker:

I found myself thinking about this the other day in-depth...by myself.

I think that answer might not be so obvious, animation is diverse - and styles range. Once you have an understanding of timing, you can manipulate it, exaggerate it, work in and out of many softwares, and it be equally beautiful completely realistic, or totally unique.

I think what makes great animation is great design. Strong posing. That's how I see it lately.

For cel or characters specifically, understanding how the body moves and how to position it in your animation. Action is formed first in our brains, and that is limited by our comprehension of how a character might react in reality. Then it can be manipulated or stylized appropriately per the creative, but the foundation is based in reality. Our level of comprehension of that reality "makes or breaks" our shots.

Matea Losenegger:

How did you develop your distinct visual style and how do you keep your ideas fresh?

Reece Parker:

My style is an exercise in evolving over time. I started in this industry with what I thought "motion graphics" was, that being clean vector shapes bopping around. Turns out I had only been exposed to a small (but impressive) corner of motion design at that time. I'm glad I was so short-sided, because the foundation of After Effects forward workflows really balanced my lifetime experience of drawing by hand. When the right time for me to be more artistically driven came along (rather than driven purely by survival) I found my hand-drawn roots ready for me to tap right in. That mixed with a new breadth of knowledge of a whole other form of artistry, more graphic and math driven. The combination of the 2 is really where my style lives. My preference might be to scribble on everything, but that's realistically not the right solution for everything - I understand that. My evolution through this industry has allowed me to deliver on "different" expertise' under the 2D umbrella with confidence and vision indiscriminately.

*Still from* Trifilm’s short for Microsoft.

Matea Losenegger:

In a similar vein, do you have any tips on how to combat burnout?

Reece Parker:

Burnout! The dreaded burnout. There's no one size fits all solution here. I have had small symptoms of burnout that I have powered through and left in the dust. Other times it has been more all-consuming. Depending on its severity, my first course is to identify it and try to trace it back to its inception. Might have been a lost pitch that I loved that has a lasting effect I wasn't considering. Could be anything! If It's correctly identified, it's a more seamless path through the tunnel and out the other side. If it's being ignored or unacknowledged, how can we realistically work through it? For me it's not always as simple as "take some time off", my work lives and breaths in my head - on and off the clock. "Taking time" off is only beneficial if I've overcome what's affecting me first.

Matea Losenegger:

On your site you say that "from time to time, I will join a project as an animator or illustrator- if the shoe fits." What about a project entices you into those roles?

Reece Parker:

Working in multiple capacities with clients allows me to be more particular about what I take on. It might be as simple as an awesome brief, don't get me wrong - I love this stuff. If there's something that seems challenging and interesting, then great. Or, It might be a legacy client that has supported me from the start, maybe they are in a bind, or maybe they only see me fitting the job. Great, let's knock it out. Relationships above my own ego, and I'm not in the business of burning those that have been there for me.

That being said, what I find most compelling in my current project landscape are projects that mix leadership and artistry. If I can take one shot, while directing the rest of the shots with an awesome team - I'm very stoked. Put simply, I've found that mix of responsibilities really suits my skillset, and the more I've done it the more clear that has become.

*Shot from the TIMELORD spot for Battleaxe.*

Matea Losenegger:

When pitching for projects, how do you make sure yours stand out in a sea of other amazing studios and artists?

Reece Parker:

I've been pitching like mad! Sometimes we snatch it, sometimes it blows away. It's the nature of the beast. Luckily I'm not completely reliant on pitching, so it's less depressing to be kicked aside. I don't consider myself wholly unique, I just try to be proud of what I present to clients. If I'm not proud of it, I know that there was more I could have poured into it. If I'm proud of it but it goes another way, then I wasn't the artist for the creative. It's really that simple. Stiff competition at the top of the mountain, really really stiff. But Im proud to be considered in those conversations so frequently now. Learning and absorbing all I can.

Matea Losenegger:

What's it like working for a studio like Hornet? What does it mean to be repped by a studio vs working for them as a staff member or freelancer?

Reece Parker:

They are great collaborators, and supportive. We are more intimately collaborative now, more open, and more frequent communication on and off jobs. I'm really excited to be partnered with them and excited about what the future brings.

Outside of that, I work as I always have. My independence is unshakably important to me, so I made sure that was clear in our negotiations. They were and have been supportive through and through.

Being "repped" means that Hornet (in my case, there are many reps) packages up my work and sells it through to their contacts and clients. If there are jobs that come in that feel like they fit my capabilities, they will poke me to see If I'm free and interested. If so, they pair me up with them in their communication and presentation to clients. From there, I champion the vision and creative treatment of the project. Client presentations, team building and expectations, project style and execution, etc. They help me resource the job, schedule it, budget it, communicate with clients, all the things that can be not so-fun solo.

Hornet's reach is as wide as it gets. They also serve a tier of client that Reece Parker as a solo act doesn't reach. They act as my team if we win the project together.

If I win a project solo, and want to bring them in, I also have that ability. Take some of the load off of my plate. But I also have the freedom to tackle it myself, as I have been doing comfortably for many years. Depends on the context rather than one size fits all.

Staff - Im not sure! I've never been staff anywhere but Taco Bell and Costco. Staff artists are there to support jobs that are being directed, and are assigned and scheduled according to their skillset. Hornet also has strong staff artists, that are super super helpful when building out teams in tandem with freelancers or if we can't resource freelance talent for whatever reason.

Freelance - freelancing has a bit more commonality with being repped, and with being staff. You are poked to join a project that is being directed, to fill a need on that production line. That project ends and you join the next team and next project. Instead of jumping to other people's creatives, I find myself more often owning the creative, and trying to source great talent to join me.

Matea Losenegger:

As someone who is revered for their work, is there anything you would like people to know about you outside of your art?

Reece Parker:

The work may be revered, but I don't think Im special. I think the path I've carved may be at least partially unique but also serves as proof of concept for those willing to do the same. LOVE what you do, and keep working at it as a consequence.

Outside of work, I love life. I love my family to death. Wife, kids, parents, siblings, and friends alike. I've been really fortunate, I try to be considerate of that. I love overthinking, analyzing things with Kiara, building things with my dad, and teasing and dancing with my kids. I try to be carefree when it's beneficial to be, and take things seriously that ask for it. It's served me well in life.

I'm a product of independence, my path throughout my life is proof of that. Skateboarding is an individual activity, it's no coincidence that I have remained solo in my eventual career. But I'm not here without the influence and help of so many others. Indirectly or directly from those close to me. Shout out those folks! Much love.

Matea Losenegger:

What does the rest of 2023 look like for you? Are there any projects you're excited about?

Reece Parker:

Some interesting things! I am nearing the end of building out a new warehouse studio. Sort of a dream come true, but so is my current studio honestly. The new endeavor is symbolic of where the business is going, and I wouldn't have invested in it if the business hadn't earned it.

That's something I've really been contemplating. When I was commissioning my shipping container conversion in late 2019, I remember really carefully considering the financial implications of the commitment - mostly just full of anxiety and fear. But I did it because that was what the business deserved at the time. I had those same feelings and reservations about buying my first iMac, as a replacement workstation for my original MacBook that my wife secretly saved for and bought for me to start my career.

It seems so small now in comparison, but those memories serve as a strong example of my commitment to investing back into myself and the business when the time is right. You can feel it, and it's always scary. But the clear lesson is to invest in yourself.

Projects and new things are hush-hush for now, but yes I am excited, and will share more soon! Thanks, Dashers!

Mack Garrison 4/10/23 Mack Garrison 4/10/23

Takeover Tuesday Tory Van Wey

An interview with Tory Van Wey: Senior Brand Designer & Illustrator at deel.

Q&A with Tory Van Wey.

Read time: 5min

Mack Garrison:

Thanks for participating in the Tuesday Takeover, Tory! For those that are unfamiliar with you and your work, tell us a bit about yourself and how you found your way into the creative space.

Tory Van Wey:

Thank you! I'm Tory, and I'm a designer and illustrator based out of the San Francisco Bay Area. I have been drawing pictures professionally for 10 years, both freelance and in-house and I am currently a Senior Brand Designer/Illustrator at Deel - a global hiring and HR platform.

Mack Garrison:

Your work is very illustrative but also has a very graphic design feel to it. How did you develop this style over the years?

Tory Van Wey:

This was a natural consequence of being both an illustrator and trained as a traditional graphic designer as well as the influence of my history as a letterpress printer. Over the years I have pivoted my career to focus almost exclusively on illustration and illustration systems, but my history as a graphic designer and printer always informs the way that I approach a project. Most of my work is built using simple geometric shapes stacked on top of one another to create more complex objects. This lends a graphic quality that is hard to achieve with hand drawing. Combine that with my everlasting respect for designers like Marian Bantjes and Saul Bass and love of graphic structure, and I'll likely always be straddling the line between designer/illustrator.

*Some of the work Tory has illustrated for deel.*

Mack Garrison:

One of the harder aspects of being a designer in a corporate space is pushing creative boundaries. How have you navigated that? Avoided burnout?

Tory Van Wey:

This is a hard balancing act as the diversity of companies hiring creatives means that there are endless philosophies and attitudes about how design fits within the corporate ecosystem, so the creative experience can vary wildly. I am personally selective about who I work for because my skillset is not a perfect fit for every "Brand Designer" role and over the years I have learned to be honest about what I am looking for in a role, and to not hesitate to say if I don't think it's a good fit. This has certainly cost me jobs, but saved my sanity. I also try to bring creativity into corporate creative in unexpected ways. Perhaps there is a vibrant color pairing that feels a bit more contemporary, or I can learn a new technique that I can apply to a project that would otherwise be on the dull side. If I am pushing my own creative boundaries, or learning a new tool, then I am generally happy.

Mack Garrison:

Who are some of the creatives you've looked up to over the years for inspiration?

Tory Van Wey:

I often look to music and children's books for inspiring design. Carson Ellis and Edward Gorey were very inspiring to me in my early career when I focused on work that had more of a hand made quality to it. I also love poster artist Dan McCarthy and have a healthy collection of his prints. Lately I have really been appreciating the work of MUTI, a design studio out of Cape Town.

*Some editorial and marketing illustrations from Tory.*

Mack Garrison:

It's hard to choose a favorite project, but do you have one that particularly sticks out to you?

Tory Van Wey:

I had a great time designing this Trippy Tropical shirt for a local SF company called Betabrand. It was a really fun synthesis of my interest in botany, and psychedelic creative freedom!

Mack Garrison:

Looking back at your career, what advice would you give to the next generation of illustrators making their way into the space? Anything you would do differently or think is really important to know?

Tory Van Wey:

My biggest piece of advice would be to produce the kind of work that you want to create commercially, even if you need to do it on your own time. People hire you based off of what they have already seen from you, not what they think you might be able to create. That means you need to push yourself creatively on your own time (or perhaps pro bono for friends) to explore the kinds of styles you want to get paid for later on. I would also tell a new designer to not sweat it if they haven't found their voice yet. There's a lot of pressure to find your voice as an illustrator, and I think it's valid, but there's also a lot of room and opportunity for illustrators that are more flexible and can produce work in a range of styles. I might even suggest it's more enjoyable.

*Trippy Tropical shirt for a local SF company called Betabrand.*

Mack Garrison:

What do you think the future holds for designers and illustrators? Should we (creatives) be nervous or excited about these new A.I. tools?

Tory Van Wey:

I'm as curious as you are about this! I think the industry might become more specialized as illustrators niche down into areas like product/iconography or editorial or motion. We also might see a more global talent pool as remote and contract work become standard and there are fewer limitations in hiring designers abroad. As far as AI, I think it will likely be a new tool that designers will have at their disposal but I'm not personally too worried about it taking over a creatives' role quite yet. After playing around with most of the AI generators, it's apparent to me that a lot of work goes into creating the right prompt to generate an accurate image and often I could have simply drawn it out faster. I'm curious to see where it goes and how AI is incorporated into our daily lives in an ethical way that compensates creatives, and minimizes bias.

Mack Garrison:

Outside of being an illustrator and designer, what are some of your hobbies?

Tory Van Wey:

When I'm not drawing for money you can find me putzing around the garden like an old lady, attempting to learn a new skill (currently taking a School of Motion course!) or herding my two kids up a hiking trail.

Mack Garrison:

Last but not least, anything you'd like to leave our audience with?

Tory Van Wey:

It's a unique privilege to make a living as a creative. Let's appreciate the folks that came before us that paved the way for our skills to be valued, and the folks that continue to advocate for creatives today. And let's not take ourselves too seriously. I think us creatives can get wrapped up in the idea of our own legacy. Do good work, live a thoughtful life, and don't be a jerk.

Mack Garrison 4/3/23 Mack Garrison 4/3/23

Takeover Tuesday Vanessa Appleby

An interview with Vanessa Appleby: an art/animation director who straddles the divide between motion design and traditional character animation.

Q&A with Vanessa Appleby.

Read time: 5min

Bella Alfonsi:

Hi, Vanessa! Thanks so much for joining us for Takeover Tuesday. For those who are unfamiliar with you or your work, please give us a lil' intro!

Vanessa Appleby:

Hi! I'm an art/animation director who straddles the divide between motion design and traditional character animation. I've been in the business for almost 15 years now, and I've had a chance to try on lots of hats over the years.

Bella Alfonsi:

How did your career begin? Did you always know you wanted to be in this field?

Vanessa Appleby:

I did not! I've always been a bit of a renaissance woman. I have a lot of varied interests.

In high school, I started drawing caricatures at a local amusement park. I think this is probably the most influential experience of my youth. It taught me a lot about life, but most importantly, it taught me that I could make money with my art. Funnily enough, I still have friends from this time working in the NYC animation industry today.

When I entered college, I had narrowed down my career path to fashion design or animation (odd, I know), so I chose a school that had strong programs for both. I ultimately decided on animation for what I thought was a shallow reason, but turns out was actually a smart one. I liked the people who were going into the animation major much more than I liked the fashion design students. They were funny, and I love to laugh.

I started my career working as a 2d cel animator in Flash, mostly working on childrens' TV. Over the years I transitioned to AE character animation, which led to compositing, which led to commercial motion design, which led to art directing, which led to now. It's been a wild ride.

Bella Alfonsi:

On your website you explain how out of every job you’ve done, directing is by far your favorite. Why is that?

Vanessa Appleby:

The short answer? I like making a plan and executing the plan. That's easiest to do when you're the director ;)

I also love finding out what my team is passionate about and delegating those tasks appropriately. I want to foster a sense of excitement for everyone who works on my projects. It makes the outcome so much stronger.

Bella Alfonsi:

Do you have any advice for someone trying to become a director themselves?

Vanessa Appleby:

You'll have to pay your dues in the industry before people start trusting you to direct. Be patient, keep trying, and don't be afraid to take on a lower paying gig if you get to run the show. You're not going to get to start directing at one of the big studios right out of the gate. Try working directly with clients (think music videos for example) to get some directed spots under your belt. Once people see what you can do when you're in charge, opportunities will come knocking.

*Love is at 35,000 feet - directed by Vanessa.*

Bella Alfonsi:

You’ve worked with a ton of different art styles over the years. Do you have a favorite?

Vanessa Appleby:

Nope! I'm ADHD and have always loved experimenting in different mediums and styles. I like to push myself and create something unique. I do especially enjoy vector workflows, but that's not exactly a style per se.

Bella Alfonsi:

Your personal illustrations are so colorful and full of life. I think that although each piece is unique from one another, it is still evident that you created all of them. What insight would you give to someone trying to find their “style”?

Vanessa Appleby:

Ha! I may be the worst person to ask. To be honest, having a "style" has always been a point of contention I've internally wrestled with.

In our business, popular looks/styles come and go. A director who has the current "it" look may not have a long lasting career unless they are able to adapt and change with the times. I wanted to be in this business for the long haul, and being as diverse as possible was key for that. I think no matter what, your hand will always shine through even though you're trying to emulate a different look. Your hand will give you cohesion even if your brain is trying to avoid that.

*Style frame for QUEST FOR THE LOST CONSOLE.*

Bella Alfonsi:

Where do you find inspiration when starting a project from scratch?

Vanessa Appleby:

Everywhere! I go on long walks through the city and often see funny and inspiring things. I'm also a history dork, so I tend to find inspiration from decorative arts and pattern motifs of the past. Most recently I became obsessed with Medieval illuminated manuscripts and scoured thousands of pages collecting funny marginalia creatures. Explore your passions outside of art. Inspiration can come from anywhere.

Bella Alfonsi:

As someone with 15 years of experience, what do you think the future of motion design looks like? And how is it different now from when you first started out?

Vanessa Appleby:

Motion design is already so different from how it was when I started. The biggest shift I've seen is an uptick in women in the field. Between 2008 - 2015 I was usually the only female on a team. This boggled my mind since my degree program was predominantly women.

Despite this, there were, and still are unfortunately, not many women at the top. I do think with the advent of groups like Panimation that things are beginning to change even more. I just hope it keeps going and the industry becomes even more diverse and inclusive.

Bella Alfonsi:

What is your proudest moment in your career thus far?

Vanessa Appleby:

This is a tough one- I kind of hope it's still to come!

Bella Alfonsi:

Any final takeaways?

Vanessa Appleby:

Keep going! This business can be tough, especially when you're just starting out. If what you're doing isn't getting you the results you want in your career, try a different approach. We're creative people. Don't be afraid to apply that creativity to how you grow your career or earn your money.

Mack Garrison 3/20/23 Mack Garrison 3/20/23

Takeover Tuesday with Lili Boisrond

An interview with Lili Boisrond: a mixed media artist specializing in animation and design.

Q&A with Lili Boisrond.

Read time: 5min

Bella Alfonsi:

Thanks so much for joining us for Takeover Tuesday, Lili! For those who aren’t familiar with you or your work, please give us a lil’ intro!

Lili Boisrond:

Hi! My name is Lili, I’m a mixed media artist specializing in animation and design. I grew up in Paris and headed to NYC for university where I ended up staying for 8 years. I’m now back in Europe and rediscovering the pleasures of French cheese vocabulary!

Bella Alfonsi:

How did your career start? Did you always know that you wanted to get into the motion design industry?

Lili Boisrond:

My pursuit of motion design actually started on a miscommunication in choosing a semester class in college. Thinking I enrolled in a drawing class, I ended up in “drawing for storyboard”, which led to experimental animation and later to narrative animation. It was mesmerizing because until then I had too many passions to see a clear career road, always having to choose between visual arts, music and storytelling. The animation world and motion design showed me they can coexist in a larger, multifaceted creation. I love the idea of a “global” piece when it comes to making an animation. Goosebumps.

*Shots from Architectural Digest project with IKEA*

Bella Alfonsi:

The motion design industry is full of folks who have extensive schooling and some, none at all. In what ways has having a formal education in visual arts, art history, and jazz affected your career? Would you recommend higher-education to others?

Lili Boisrond:

This is a tough question for me. I very much enjoyed taking the liberal arts road for education, but I think it’s such a personal choice. I had no idea what I wanted to do and couldn’t pick between one artistic or academic area so it was an ideal mix for me. When I started working in an animation studio fresh out of college I realized I had literally no technical knowledge. No kidding, on my first day I asked a freelancer sitting next to me how to make something bigger in Photoshop...

I worked my way up with intensive ‘head banging against the wall after effects tutorial marathon nights’ and learned things quickly, but I always wondered what things could have been if I had attended a school like SVA.

Looking back now, I definitely wouldn’t change the path I took and I think there are tons of advantages to being self taught - you have to be quick on your feet and I think it makes you a creatively independent person faster. I’m also happy I get to feed my work with a broader source of education whether it be music, philosophy or literature, it makes you stand out and you can always nourish your technical abilities later on!

Bella Alfonsi:

What’s the animation scene like in Paris? Are your clients mostly French or do you find yourself working more internationally?

Lili Boisrond:

I’ve only been back in Paris for a year now, and I have to admit, the scene is not as fluid and funky as New York. For starters, the freelancing system still feels very new here and it takes way longer to establish a solid relationship of trust with studios. In the US, producers are proactive and understand that if you did a good job in another animation shop, there’s no reason you won’t do great in theirs. Well Parisian studios and agencies don’t quite work the same way… Over the course of one year I would say I worked 90% with my US contacts, and 10% were French gigs that took weeks to find and book. When you’re still on NYC rhythm, the French work system feels SLOW.

*Compositing and post-fx work with Mighty Oak on their Affirm project.*

Bella Alfonsi:

You’ve worked with a diverse group of impressive clients (IKEA, Lyft, New Balance, etc.)! What advice do you have for freelancers first starting out who dream of working with clients like these?

Lili Boisrond:

What worked best for me has been to constantly nourish relationships with studios. On five projects maybe only one will be creatively interesting to you, but for all the times you helped out on a project that was never-ending, all the not portfolio worthy projects, the day will come that you are their go to person of trust. And that day you will be leading the project and make the creative decisions you were only dreaming of taking!

And if you find the time, don’t underestimate the power that personal projects can have on your portfolio - studios can see how you can handle a project from head to toe and that you’re serious about your work. Make sure you sprinkle a nice explanatory case study breaking down your process on top, and voilà.

Bella Alfonsi:

You’ve worked on so many fun projects over the years. Are there any in particular that really resonate with you?

Lili Boisrond:

Yes! The last project I did this summer before starting a year of studies at Gobelins comes to mind right away. My favorite animation studio - Mighty Oak - asked me to art direct a stop motion project for L.L Bean. It’s not often as a freelancer that you get to work on a project from stage A to Z delivery day, besides personal projects. Since I never specialized technically, I’m the Swiss army knife kind of motion designer and it was just wonderful to use all my toolkit in one project… storyboarding, designing, stop motion, compositing etc. Hopefully it’s the first of many more projects like this.

*New Balance - Data Driven Design project.*

Bella Alfonsi:

It feels like people are freelancing more now than ever. What’s something you wish you knew before going freelance yourself?

Lili Boisrond:

I was lucky enough to have the advices of friends in the industry who were already freelancing rockstars, and I will say what they said to me - never undersell yourself, only share projects that showcase something you like doing because that’s what people will call you for, start building a strong list of animation contacts and nourish it with clever updates. In short : put yourself out there!!

Bella Alfonsi:

When you find yourself in a creative rut, how do you get out of it? What or who inspires you?

Lili Boisrond:

A few things have worked for me over the years. I’m a strong believer in talking your way out of a creative rut. Your friends and family might not be into discussing style frames or art direction, but even saying things out loud helps. The power of voicing out a problem is incredible, and the best is having a buddy to bounce ideas off of. I’ve been torturing my husband for years and it’s worked wonders!

A second way out is to stop thinking about it. You may think taking a walk or heading out to an art show will be a waste of time when you’re on a deadline, but it will most certainly make you snap out of your blockage faster than sitting at your desk pulling your hair. Who knows what you might see or hear along the way, and by giving your brain a break it will thank you creatively.

Bella Alfonsi:

What do you think the future of motion design looks like? Anything you’re excited about or things that are concerning to you?

Lili Boisrond:

I’m continuously in awe of what humans are capable of creating, the new styles that come out every year, and how we still find novel ways to tell stories to others. But with the huge acceleration in AI with tools like Dalle 2 and Midjourney, I’m concerned (yet still hopeful!) about what the future of our creative industries will look like. Will young teens still doodle on a drawing pad or dab in creative writing when the most common tool of creativity will be writing a prompt for an AI to do it? I’m hoping it will open a door to many creative minds and new ways of thinking, but it does raise a lot of questions on where we’re heading.

Bella Alfonsi:

Any final advice/takeaways?

Lili Boisrond:

No regrets! This is my #1 rule in life. I live by it, I work by it, and most importantly I eat by it.

Mack Garrison 3/13/23 Mack Garrison 3/13/23

Takeover Tuesday with Sabrina Chaney

An interview with Sabrina Chaney: Post-Production Lead at Mighty Oak in Brooklyn.

Q&A with Sabrina Chaney.

Read time: 5min

Mack Garrison:

Sabrina! Thanks so much for taking the time to participate in our Tuesday Takeover series. For those not familiar with you and your work, can you provide a little background on yourself and your creative style?

Sabrina Chaney:

Hey! I was born and raised in Houston, Texas. I went to school for Animation at the Savannah College of Art and Design. Now I work as the Post-Production Lead at Mighty Oak in Brooklyn, New York. My creative style is an amalgamation of all my interests: comics, animation, music videos, sculpture, and patterns. My main passion is stop-motion animation, so typically I like to imbue whatever I make with some kind of handmade element or texture.

Mack Garrison:

Oh man - love the word imbue! How did you initially get into the motion design industry?

Sabrina Chaney:

After I graduated from college I knew my portfolio wasn't where it needed to be. I was applying everywhere under the sun and it felt like every email was being swallowed into the void. Nothing really kicked off until I took a few School of Motion courses and re-made my portfolio and reel from scratch while living with my parents. You can see the result of that work here. Matt Vojacek from Made by Things was the first person to take a chance on me and give me an internship - working remotely long before Covid, might I add - and that started my freelancing career which I continued for three years after I moved to Brooklyn in 2017.

Mack Garrison:

There are so many talented folks in our industry, who are some of the people you look up to?

Sabrina Chaney:

The people who inspired me the most when I was starting out are all pursuing their own big projects these days. Isaiah Saxon of Encyclopedia Pictura is directing a movie for A24. Charles Huettner, Benjy Brooke, and Sean Buckelew are adapting the Scavengers short into a TV series for HBO Max. In general, I look up to people with big imaginations who do their own thing independently and feel compelled to share their work (remember Late Night Work Club? Bring that back!). Outside of mograph, I adore the work of Meredith Gran (of Octopus Pie and Perfect Tides fame) and Jonathan Bree. They are both master storytellers in their respective fields, and I feel transported by the worlds and characters they've created.

Mack Garrison:

You work at a really cool studio called Mighty Oak who specializes in stop motion, 2D, 3D and mixed media! What's it like working there?

Sabrina Chaney:

I had already built a working relationship with Mighty Oak while I was freelancing, and they were always my favorite client to work with. I joined the team full-time in March 2020. Everyone on the team is a creative problem-solver, and we bring our unique approach and point of view to every brief. Stop-motion is our favorite medium to work with and we bring that tactile sensibility to every project, whether it's animated in-camera or animated completely digitally. As the compositor, I get to solve a new puzzle every day, which makes my work rewarding and enjoyable. I love the variety of work that we attract, and I especially love when we have the opportunity to push ourselves with new techniques we've never tried before. Like a mighty oak, we are continuing to grow every year!

*Title card for the Netflix series: the Principles of Pleasure from Mighty Oak.*

Mack Garrison:

What are some of your favorite projects you've had a chance to work on?

Sabrina Chaney:

During 2020 and shortly after I was brought on staff, we created animated sequences for Mary J Blige's My Life which is now streaming on Amazon. That project holds a special place in my heart because whether the world was falling apart or I had something going on in my personal life, I always had something beautiful to look forward to at work. It was also the longest-running project we had worked on as a team, so it felt good to practice consistency and surpass our benchmarks together as the months went by. We developed a painterly frame-by-frame 2D workflow using Procreate and After Effects, inspired by the work of our creative director Michaela Olsen. I can look back on what we made and feel proud of what we accomplished. I was also invited to the film premiere in Lincoln Center along with the rest of our team- and Mary J Blige herself was at the afterparty! We made direct eye contact! I'll never forget it.

Similarly, in 2021, we created animated sequences for the Netflix series Principles of Pleasure. Each episode has a different art direction depending on the given topic, and we used a mix of stop-motion animation with props, pixelation with human actors, collage, frame-by-frame 2D animation, and motion graphics to illustrate topics relating to sexual education and female pleasure. We used a lot of the lessons we learned during 2020 and applied it to the production of PoP. We harnessed the momentum of the previous year to create something fresh and different. Those projects combined offered us a lot of fun and challenging work during the pandemic, which is something I'm still grateful for.

Mack Garrison:

Looking at your reel, you've really done a phenomenal job with your compositing skills! Could you talk a bit about your approach in making a shot feel perfect?

Sabrina Chaney:

Consistency is key. It's not about whether a shot is perfect, it's about whether the shot feels believable. Compositing is a lot like being an illusionist who can do card tricks: of course we may know what lies up our sleeve, but all the audience sees is magic! What I love most about working in After Effects is that there are a thousand ways to achieve a desired result, so there is no "wrong" or "right" approach. It all boils down to the needs of each shot and making sure the hero product or character can shine without any distractions.

Mack Garrison:

What are some things everyone should think about when they're compositing animations?

Sabrina Chaney:

Compositing encompasses a lot of different techniques, including green-screening, rotoscoping/masking, special effects, motion graphics, color correction, and rendering. Each of those skills could be its own visual effects discipline with its own specialized software. I tend to keep everything as simplified as possible to avoid getting overwhelmed, and I find this practice also makes it easier if I need to pass off a shot to somebody else. By simplified I mean things like keeping my project folders organized, using only the most necessary layers in my timeline, and frequently reducing my project to trim down on unnecessary files inside of my .aep. I find that these small acts of tidying up help me stay focused on the compositing work that really matters instead of getting caught up in the weeds, overcomplicating things, and then causing trouble for myself later in a project when I can't make heads or tails of my project file.

Mack Garrison:

Your work and Might Oak's has a very hand-crafted feel. I'm curious what your thoughts are around the development of A.I. Are you worried about what it could do to the industry? And how do you think it will affect the stop motion space?

Sabrina Chaney:

Honestly, I'm very ambivalent and non-threatened by A.I. People have already been creating 3D animation that looks like claymation for years, and projects like The Lego Movie directly reference stop-motion animation techniques. Technically stop-motion has already been made obsolete. People simply love it too much to let it die! If A.I does have a place in the process of creating stop-motion animation, then it'll probably occupy a space much like rapid prototyping technology, which allowed Laika to make characters more expressive using 3D animated faces in Coraline and is now an industry standard practice.

Mack Garrison:

Any advice you'd give to the next generation of creatives?

Sabrina Chaney:

I grew up Extremely Online from middle school through college, migrating from deviantART to Tumblr to Twitter and Instagram in an effort to post and share my work. I never had much of an audience, and I found it more draining than energizing. At the end of the day, I'm not sure how much good it did when it came to actually getting work. By far the best networking connections I've made were from reaching out to people directly via email, using the Internet to do my own industry research, and meeting people face to face at in-person events. Your portfolio speaks for itself. If you feel pressured by social media, I recommend deleting your apps for a temporary period and dedicating the time towards things that inspire you without any plans to share what you've done. Maintaining some semblance of privacy can be intensely freeing, because you're allowed to make mistakes, learn, and experiment without subscribing to trends or comparing yourself to others.

Mack Garrison:

Anything else you'd like to add?

Sabrina Chaney:

I want to place a special shoutout to Panimation NYC! Panimation meetups were how I met many of my current friends and peers right after I moved to New York City when I didn't know a soul. Coming out of the pandemic, I learned how easy it can be to become isolated. It helps to get involved with a community of like-minded people who support each other.

Mack Garrison 3/6/23 Mack Garrison 3/6/23

Takeover Tuesday with Katie Trayte

An interview with Katie Trayte: an illustrator based in Washington, D.C as well as the Creative Director at Duke & Duck.

Q&A with Sarah Chokali.

Read time: 5min

Bella Alfonsi:

Hey, Katie! Thanks so much for being a part of Takeover Tuesday. For those who are unfamiliar with you or your work, please tell us about you and what you do!

Katie Trayte:

Thank you so much for inviting me to participate! I love your Takeover Tuesday series.

My name is Katie Trayte and I’m an illustrator based in Washington, D.C as well as the Creative Director at Duke & Duck.

Bella Alfonsi:

Do you have any formal training or are you completely self taught?

Katie Trayte:

I graduated from SCAD with an Illustration degree, but I am fairly self-taught when it comes to animation. I started out of school as an apparel graphic designer for Hollister. So if I made it here, you can too! I always felt a pull towards animation and storytelling, but never really saw where I could fit into the compartmentalized pipelines of feature and tv. When I found the world of motion design I was, in a word, obsessed. I was also what the French call, "Les incompetents". My love of the work made it easy to find motivation in closing my knowledge gap. It was an area where my illustration and graphic design passions could both thrive, and I was so drawn to the experimental styles and trend-setting approaches happening in the field.

*Shot from Sony’s | Barbra Streisand project that Katie Art Directed.*

Bella Alfonsi:

You have an impressive resume of clients, like Sony, Nestle, and Discovery Channel, just to name a few! What advice do you have for freelancers first starting out who dream of working with clients like these?

Katie Trayte:

I have spent most of my career in-house. From that experience, I would say there’s a huge benefit to being part of a company or studio to get access to those partnerships. Especially if you’re still finding your style and the idea of exploring a lot of different visual directions appeals to you. In-house is also a great place to get a master class on business and sales. Confidence in these skills can help you to feel more empowered to establish and foster relationships with your dream clients as a freelancer.

Bella Alfonsi:

What steps did you take to go from illustrator/designer to Art Director? Do you prefer doing one more than the other?

Katie Trayte:

I jumped from graphic designer in ‘the outside world’ to an AD at Demo Duck. Not having much motion design experience behind me at that moment was… different, but a lot of the skills that had led me to advance in design roles were still very applicable despite the shift between industries. Effective communication, articulation of ideas, and management skills all help take you from making great art to leading great art. I have such a strategy brain that I’d say art director is the role for me. I love being client-facing and problem-solving along the way during a project. I still get to do a fair amount of hands-on work in an AD role, so it’s a win-win!

*Style Frame from Duke & Duck’s project for Nestlé that Katie designed and Art Directed.*

Bella Alfonsi:

Do you have any advice for someone trying to become a director themselves?

Katie Trayte:

Start by demanding excellence from yourself in your area of production. If you’re producing high-quality work in your role, you’ll be trusted to own more and more of the pipeline. Hone your voice, always concept from a unique angle, and keep learning about areas of production that may be outside your expertise. Most importantly- develop your people skills! Effective negotiation, collaboration, and communication help to win the respect of your client and your team. At the director level, more often than not, your people skills are going to be what makes or breaks the success of a project.

Bella Alfonsi:

Tell us a bit about the piece, Be Aware. What was it like working with Barbra Streisand? How did the unique painterly approach come to be?

Katie Trayte:

Be Aware was such a dream to work on. Barbra Streisand was much more involved in the review and development of the project than I was expecting, which was a really fun surprise. I even have a first pass of my storyboards that came back to us with her handwritten notes on them! Treasure. She and Sony were both great clients.

Since moving to DC I’ve become friends with Elyse Kelly, who is an independent director and founder of Neon Zoo. I admire her work so much, and when she asked me to join the project I was excited about the opportunity to shadow her directorial expertise. The painterly approach came out of a lot of style development with Elyse. We wanted a look that matched the song- sweeping, emotive, and sensitive to the subject matter. I did initial sketch boards in a gestural, loose hand and that treatment felt like a natural marriage to the song lyrics. Elyse’s body of work is very painterly, so her talented animation team was very equipped to bring the look to life.

I love to paint, but most of my work up to Be Aware has had to be very graphic-driven. It felt like I got to really be myself with this style and say, “Don’t bring around a cloud to rain on my parade!”

Bella Alfonsi:

When you find yourself in a creative rut, how do you get out of it?

Katie Trayte:

Working remotely, (like I do now), or working freelance can make a creative rut feel like a creative canyon. An impossible abyss of creative failure from which you will never escape! On my own, I have never had a great solution for these difficult patches other than to take it easy on myself and let time pass, knowing that I’ll move beyond it. As a team, we’ve started a lot of open dialogue about overcoming ruts and are committing to more open avenues of collaboration this year. We’re working to let go of any self-inflicted shame associated with being stuck by reaching out to each other to talk through blocks, hurdles, or low points before they get too far. We’re having a lot of success. Working remotely, you're much more prone to anxiety and self-doubt that can make you retreat inwards. We’re all being intentional about training ourselves out of this habit through communication and feeling safe to be vulnerable with each other.

*Shot from Duke & Duck’s “Plos” brand video Katie designed and directed.*

Bella Alfonsi:

What or who inspires you?

Katie Trayte:

Both in my personal time and inside Duke & Duck we’re making more of a commitment to developing children’s IP. We’re even starting a sister brand for kid’s content called Double Scoop Studio! About a year ago, we discovered how much talent there was on our team for telling character-driven episodic content and have wanted to give that talent an outlet. That’s been a big inspiration to me- having this group of people come together that are committed to starting this new ambitious journey. I love working with my team to help find the special stories we have within us. Working together to grow these ideas, with a lot of laughter and joy along the way, feels like magic.

Currently, I’m really inspired by any kids media that takes more of a motion design direction to its animation approach or offers a new style in the space. Hey Duggee, Wide Load Vacay, City Island, StoryBots, and City of Ghosts are all great examples.

Bella Alfonsi:

Any final takeaways?

Katie Trayte:

I think I’ve said it all. Thank you so much, Dash team, for hosting these interviews and for always finding great ways to bring our community together!

Mack Garrison 2/27/23 Mack Garrison 2/27/23

Takeover Tuesday with Sarah Chokali

An interview with Sarah Chokali: a passionate and multidisciplined motion designer based in Brooklyn, New York. I was born and raised in Baghdad, Iraq, and have had a lifelong interest in the power of visual storytelling.

Q&A with Sarah Chokali.

Read time: 5min

Mack Garrison:

Thanks for participating in our Tuesday Takeover series, Sarah. For folks not familiar with you or your work, could you give us an introduction and a little background on how you got into the creative space?

Sarah Chokali:

Thank you for having me in the Tuesday Takeovers alongside inspirational artists I’ve admired.

I'm Sarah Chokali, a passionate and multidisciplined motion designer based in Brooklyn, New York. I was born and raised in Baghdad, Iraq, and have had a lifelong interest in the power of visual storytelling.

Growing up in a challenging environment sparked my creativity and my love for art at a young age. I've always been fascinated by the way that visual expression can create a connection between people.

I’ve started my career as a graphic designer around 2014. However, my passion for animation led me to discover the world of motion design. Since then, I've been on an ongoing journey to learn more about using motion to communicate and bring ideas to life. I aim to create impactful visual experiences, and I’m not tied to one design discipline. I am working on experimenting with different techniques.

Currently, I’m working with the dream team at Grandarmy at their office in New York City.

Mack Garrison:

You've got an entertaining portfolio in a variety of styles! Do you have a preferred medium you like more than others?

Sarah Chokali:

That's a great question. I'm a bit of a medium maverick. I don't believe in playing by the rules and sticking to just one medium. To me, the magic happens when different mediums come together to create something truly unique and unexpected as long as there is a clear contrast, whether in values, shapes, textures, and/or colors.

Having said that, After Effects is like my home base, the central hub where all my creative ideas come together. It's where I can bring all these different assets and techniques together.

*Opening shot from Sarah Chokali’s demo reel.*

Mack Garrison:

Some would say that 3d motion design work and illustration work are on opposite sides of the creative spectrum. How does one approach influence the other?

Sarah Chokali:

It's true, 3D motion design and illustration can appear to be on opposite sides of the creative spectrum. But for me, it's less about the differences between the two and more about the different processes that go into each.

I think of it like this - sometimes, I sketch an illustration on my iPad using my pen on the screen, then I'll bring those sketches into Adobe Illustrator and use the pen tool with my mouse to refine the lines. Both steps are part of creating an illustration, but they require different approaches.

The same goes for 3D motion design. During the process of building abstract shapes and bringing them to life in 3D whether using simulations of keyframes, it can be very different from the traditional illustration process. Both methods bring me joy and excitement; by combining different techniques in one place, a new style can be born.

The switch between different mediums is challenging. It didn’t come easily to me, especially when I’m fighting that resistance to using my comfort tools instead experimenting with new techniques. It takes time, practice, and dedication to combine different techniques. I had to sacrifice a lot of my social life and even some sleep in order to learn 3D, but my drive to create unique visuals kept me motivated.

I don’t recommend the combination unless you have enough energy and time. Nothing is more important than our health.

Mack Garrison:

Great answer! I really love your character work; both illustrative and the 3d versions. Where does the inspiration for each come from?

Sarah Chokali:

It’s flattering to know that you find it this way; thanks a lot.

My inspiration for the characters comes from my desire to challenge gender norms and celebrate femininity. Growing up in an environment where being a woman was seen as a sin and with limited representation, I've always been drawn to creating strong female characters. I find joy in bringing these characters to life, both through my traditional illustrations and through my 3D animations. I consciously and subconsciously find it as a way to give a voice to those who may have felt suppressed in the past and to provide a positive representation of women in my work.

*Character from Sarah’s “Parallel Project.”*

Mack Garrison:

What’s an ideal project for you, and is there a brand you would love to work with?

Sarah Chokali:

Since I’m currently not a freelancer, I’d say what makes a great project to me is the project where I need to push out my limits and seek to create unique visuals for it.

Mack Garrison:

It's always hard to choose a "favorite" project, but is there one piece that really sticks out to you?

Sarah Chokali:

Ah, that’s so tough, especially given that the most interesting projects are still in production. But I just started a new passion project where I share a breathing exercise for the social media scroller. This project is dedicated to creating animated content that offers a peaceful refuge for the mind. Also, it is gonna be an exercise for me as a motion creator.

Mack Garrison:

Can’t wait to see it! I know you're a big advocate for women in tech. What are some initiatives you're currently working on?

Sarah Chokali:

It has always been a pleasure and great responsibility to advocate time and efforts to help unrepresented groups. I’m involved with Code Lab initiative in Baghdad, which focuses on creating the first AI hub in Iraq by organizing bootcamps and workshops. However, I’m temporarily not as active as I used to be when I was present in Baghdad. My goal is to create impactful content that serves to inspire or represent oppressed voices, especially women in my country.

Mack Garrison:

How has growing up in Iraq shaped your professional career?

Sarah Chokali:

With every challenge comes a new opportunity to learn and develop. Living in Iraq was like living life in a difficult mode. Not only I experienced economic sanctions, two wars, and a civil war that cost me to lose friends and family members. But I also experienced living in a society where women are titled to be only good wives and caring mothers. While I was lucky to have supportive parents, the environment was unfair to women. Women’s freedom and independence are far away from being a reality.

I was vocal about my rights as a human being to work and choose my path. My desire to make an impact and work passionately as a creator was unrealistic to dream of in the environment I lived in.

But I was curious about animation creation. When my uncle’s house got a computer, I stayed there playing with MS paint and was fascinated by that software. Yup! I imagined I could create things frame by frame with that software.

It’s more like my motion design career helped me get independence. Additionally, when I paid for my work, I’d save 75% of it to invest in optimizing my work process to overcome the challenges I was facing.

My background has shaped me into a more determined and resilient individual, always seeking to learn and grow in my craft.

Sarah Chokali — *Sarah is one of Iraq’s Influential Women In Tech - click the image to see the article!*

Mack Garrison:

Any final takeaways for our audience?

Sarah Chokali:

Thank you for taking the time to learn more about my story with motion design.

With motion design being a rapidly expanding field, it's truly an exciting time to be a part of this industry. Accessibility to resources has never been easier, and if creativity gives purpose to your life, then listening to your intuition, overcoming obstacles, and putting in hard work can lead to fulfilling that purpose.

However, keeping up with the constant advancements in technology and technique can be intimidating, which is why it's crucial to prioritize rest. This includes taking breaks from social media and focusing on physical and mental health. Social media platforms are designed to consume as much of our attention as possible, making it even more important to reduce the time spent scrolling and redirect that energy toward what truly matters. It sounds easy but we all know that many of us find it challenging to limit the impact of social media on our energy.

Mack Garrison 2/9/23 Mack Garrison 2/9/23

Takeover Tuesday with Juan Jose Diaz

An interview with Juan Jose Diaz: a Colombian Visual Artist that loves to give life to things with animation.

Q&A with Juan Jose Diaz.

Read time: 5min

Bella Alfonsi:

Hey, JJ! Thanks for taking over a Tuesday with us. Tell us who you are and what you create!

JJ:

Hey Dash Team; thank you so much for having me at Takeover Tuesday. I am Juan Jose Diaz or JJ! I am a Colombian Visual Artist that loves to give life to things with animation; I love to draw and experiment with timing, creating compelling visuals that communicate ideas.

Bella Alfonsi:

What made you make the move from Colombia to the US?

JJ:

I got pretty lucky because my uncle applied for a visa for my family. It took 14 years, but we finally made it, hehe, and the first time I traveled outside Colombia was to migrate to the US.

*Transistor Studios - Valentine’s Day Post*

Bella Alfonsi:

How has growing up in Colombia influenced you and your work?

JJ:

Oh, it has given me a lot of curiosity and allowed me to learn from artistic referents that use art to talk about serious social issues and reflect on different aspects of being human.

So I always look forward to applying that "idea first over the technique" approach.

*Loop referencing the iconic comic "Akira,"*

Bella Alfonsi:

Do you have any formal training or are you completely self taught?

JJ:

Yes, in 3D, I studied a 2-year program in 3D animation at night while I was studying Visual arts in college, a 5-year program that I did not finish because we had to migrate. But! of course, I have taken a bunch of online classes and read a bunch of books to improve my practice.

But at a distance, I go back to just wanting to draw, in whatever form that takes.

Bella Alfonsi:

Looking at your portfolio, it appears you are a cel animation wizard. Is this your favorite method of animation?

JJ:

Yes, after a couple of years dealing with the crashing of 3D software, I started to find it easier at the beginning to translate my ideas with drawings without having to be a generalist expert in 3D to model, texture, rig, render, etc.

Bella Alfonsi:

What’s your workflow like when cel animating?

JJ:

First, thumbnails, where all the crazy ideas appear, tiny drawings trying out different compositions, thinking a lot on the negative space. Then translate that into some rough keyframes, and to find out the right timing, I do a bunch of tests just moving balls around (Everything is on the 12 principles); once that is done: time to do more rough frames, then the tie-down and finally the long process of cleaning so I get comfortable with a nice podcast or music and just work. I feel this is the time when animation gets closer to meditation.

Bella Alfonsi:

You’ve worked on a bunch of fun projects over the years, do you have a favorite?

JJ:

For a client, it will be the project for Baqsimi that I did with Ataboy Studios. I got to animate a dynamic scene and used my 3D background to block out the camera and reference the movement to translate that into drawings.

And a personal one will be the appropriation that I did of one of the Akira pages when in 2020, with all the racial issues going on in the US, I contributed with a loop reinterpreting Akira and the fight for human rights.

*Project for Baqsimi which helps patients with diabetes.*

Bella Alfonsi:

Who are some artists that you look up to and/or inspire you to create what you do?

JJ:

Sebacuri because his career amazed me, he has been able to develop a bunch of new skills seeing him going from being another motion designer to an illustrator with his own voice and making a living from that. And jonathan_djob_nkondo, because he is a master of timing, the way he works, those keyframes are definitely an artistic statement.

Bella Alfonsi:

What are you most proud of in your career thus far?

Rohan McDonald:

Being in a place I never imagined, not even two years ago, having met incredible people along the way, and having a career that supports my hobbies between extreme sports and travel.

*Short animated piece for the LA Galaxy soccer team.*

Bella Alfonsi:

Any advice/final takeaways?

Rohan McDonald:

Life is an incredible ride full of surprises. You will never know where you will be in 10 years, so keep learning about everything, not just art; keep making mistakes and make sure you take care of YOURSELF!