Takeover Tuesday with Sazan Pasori
Q&A with Sazan Pasori, an Animator, Designer, and Art Director based in Los Angeles.
Q&A with Sazan Pasori
Read time: 5min
ABBA Night Promo | Monty Bar
Madison Caprara:
Hi, Sazan! Why don’t you give us a little introduction to yourself to start us off?
Sazan Pasori:
My name is Sazan (pronounced SUH-zan). I’m an Art Director and Motion Designer based in Los Angeles. I’m a lover of color and art that doesn’t take itself too seriously. I feel lucky to get to make fun little animations for a job, but I think even if I didn’t work in this industry, I would be pulled to create things. It really feels like a compulsion!
Madison Caprara:
What education route did you end up going down, and how do you feel that experience has helped you develop as a creative?
Sazan Pasori:
I went to college at the University of San Francisco, where I studied creative writing and graphic design. I didn’t really know what I wanted out of a career, but I would lose track of time writing and designing, and figured if I could combine the two somehow down the line, that would be a pretty cool career. I eventually landed on motion design/animation/art direction after moonlighting in visual merchandising, copywriting, and creative strategy. Some motion designers I had met also encouraged me to try it out. It felt like an “a-ha” moment. I quickly dove into YouTube tutorials and animation boot camps and got totally hooked. The rest is herstory!
Madison Caprara:
Now, a lot of art directors have pretty diverse backgrounds--such as yourself! What do you think are some key qualities or experiences that good AD’s have in common?
Sazan Pasori:
In my opinion, the best art directors have a combination of instinct and discipline. Generally, they’re creative people with “an eye,” but the best ones spend lots of time researching references, developing their craft, and continually evolving/improving their output. I aspire to be this kind of art director!
Madison Caprara:
Having to wear so many hats, do you have a favorite niche or role to work within?
Sazan Pasori:
I’m a believer in the oneness of creative pursuits...I guess what I’m trying to say is that I don’t have a favorite!
Lately, I’ve really enjoyed directing and making music! Growing up, my dad spoke a lot of different languages and said the more he acquired, the next language he learned came to him easier. I feel creative pursuits are the same. I love exploring new applications of expression.
Madison Caprara:
What’s it like to work for GIPHY? Give us the lowdown.
Sazan Pasori:
Working at GIPHY is like working at a wacky animated online library. I’m just one of the librarians.
Madison Caprara:
So fun! What is it about GIFs that make them so popular in everyday conversation, in your opinion?
Sazan Pasori:
The English language can sometimes fail to capture subtle moments and feelings. GIFs give you the satisfaction of specificity, physical expression, and relatability.
Madison Caprara:
What has been your favorite, or most memorable, project to date?
Jonas Brothers x GIPHY
Sazan Pasori:
This year I co-directed an animated short with my GIPHY colleague, Tianna Harvey, titled, Blobs in Space. The one-minute animation is a 2D/3D ballad turned disco bop about connection in the time of COVID-19. Check it out! It’s a hilarious and tragic little journey.
Madison Caprara:
Pivoting back to your role, what are some of the most unexpected challenges or frustrations you have had to deal with?
Sazan Pasori:
I think artists of all kinds feel an immense amount of pressure to constantly produce new work (I know I struggle with this). I’ve definitely suffered from burnout and am working towards a life where rest and recovery are critical parts of my creative process.
Madison Caprara:
Who are some of your biggest artistic influences?
Sazan Pasori:
Everybody who knows me knows I’m a supa dupa mega Missy Elliott stan. She is my idol! Her multi-hyphenate background and out-of-the-box approach still feel like the future.
Madison Caprara:
What are some of your top career goals? Are there any you have already achieved?
Sazan Pasori:
In my opinion “career goals,” are better framed as “creative pursuits,” as I mentioned previously. A career is so tied up in your livelihood—how can my job pay my bills, you know? When you try to tie your livelihood and identity to a career...and your goals! WHEW! Now you’re simply asking too much from your career.
As far as my “career goals” go though, I’ve made it! I get to make things and get paid enough to live my life. In the future, I’d love to make longer-form content and experiment more with analog techniques.
Madison Caprara:
That’s a really healthy way to look at your career. We do have a tendency to make our job titles and identities synonymous.
Do you have any advice for aspiring art directors?
Behance: Sazan Pasori | Angel Off-Duty
Sazan Pasori:
My advice would be to just start making things! When I first started out as a designer, I was terrified to even put pen to paper. Sure, a lot of the stuff I made at first sucked, but you have to push through that initial stage until you start making things that look cool.
Madison Caprara:
Great advice!
Now, as we start to wrap it up, is there anything in particular that you would like to end this interview on?
Sazan Pasori:
A quote that has brought me immense comfort as a creative and as a person is: “Whatever it is you’re seeking, won’t come in the form you’re expecting.”
The quote is by fiction author, Haruki Murakami, and reminds me to ease up a little and let things play out. White knuckling a project, your career, or life won’t change it’s outcome.
Takeover Tuesday with Sofie Birkin
Q&A with Sofie Birkin, a queer British artist currently living in Denver.
Q&A with Sofie Birkin
Read time: 5min
Playboy Magazine | US Summer 2019 Gender & Sexuality Issue
Madison Caprara:
Hey, Sofie! Why don’t we start the Q&A with you introducing yourself?
Sofie Birkin:
I’m a queer British Illustrator living in Denver with my dog, Arthur! I mostly do digital illustration and murals locally.
Madison Caprara:
And how would you go about describing the look and feel of your illustrations and murals for those who may not be familiar?
Sofie Birkin:
I make vibrant, playful, and contemporary illustrations informed by graphic design and fashion photography. My work features an inclusive cast of bold and empowered characters who might not often be represented in mainstream media or illustration.
Madison Caprara:
From the UK to Denver, CO. Quite a difference, how are you liking the States?
Sofie Birkin:
I love it here! I’ve been in Denver for about seven years now and don’t see myself moving any time soon--I got my citizenship last year. I definitely miss free healthcare, but Denver is such a charming city. I live in a 19th-century mansion converted into apartments. All my neighbors are friends, we share homegrown vegetables and have a pottery studio in the garden. It’s pretty dreamy!
Instagram: @sofiebirkinillustration | Dame Products
Madison Caprara:
A communal garden AND pottery studio? Sounds like the ideal living situation. I’m a bit jealous, to be honest.
Now I see you started off your career studying footwear design in London. What originally drew you to that specialty?
Sofie Birkin:
I took a millinery course when I was 17 to learn how to make hats and was hooked on it. I was struggling to pick a degree and my millinery teacher told me about the footwear course. She said something along the lines of, “a shoe is just a hat for your foot.” As it transpires, that was not quite true as a shoe also has to safely and comfortably bear the weight of a human being.
Madison Caprara:
Other than the dissimilarity between footwear and headwear, what ultimately turned you off of it?
Sofie Birkin:
After spending a year in the industry I realized that none of the career options available to me were super appealing. On top of that, my favorite thing about it was creating illustrated surface designs. When I moved to Denver I realized there wasn’t really a robust fashion industry here anyway, which gave me a good excuse to start looking at other options.
Madison Caprara:
What did the interim between your fashion design and illustration career entail?
Sofie Birkin:
Serving popcorn at an indie movie theatre, doing CAD work for a sports footwear production company, gluing rhinestones and bows to hideous shoes for brides-to-be, printing cutesy slogans onto baby clothes…At one point I had five jobs--clearly, I like to stay busy!
Madison Caprara:
Did you find that your support system encouraged you throughout the process of your career change?
New York Times x Visa
Sofie Birkin:
For sure, some with tougher love than others! Honestly, the most encouraging person was probably my old boss who hired me as an in-house illustrator at his design agency. My portfolio was dreadful. I don’t think they used a single thing I made for the first year, but for some reason, he had a lot of faith in me. It gave me the opportunity to practice for hours every day and still pay my rent, which was a huge privilege.
Madison Caprara:
Was illustration a conscious choice or something you found yourself falling into?
Sofie Birkin:
I definitely fell into it. I’ve drawn my whole life, but I felt alienated by what I understood to be “fine art” and didn’t recognize what I enjoyed creating as illustration. In retrospect, I can see all the things that led me to it, but it took me a long time to actually see myself as an illustrator.
Madison Caprara:
You briefly mentioned it, but tell me a bit more about your first position within illustration.
Sofie Birkin:
My first position was the in-house job I just mentioned (the agency is called Grit), but my first major freelance gig was creating queer and trans-inclusive sex position illustrations for Cosmopolitan magazine.
Madison Caprara:
That’s such a fun first project!
What had you making the international move to Denver? That first in-house gig?
Sofie Birkin:
I moved here pretty spontaneously. I had a long-distance partner and we ended up getting married here--we’re separated now.
Madison Caprara:
Now, are you freelance? What prompted you to make that decision? How has the experience been?
Instagram: @sofiebirkinillustration | Sassify Zine
Sofie Birkin:
I’ve been freelancing since 2017 but I went full-time with it last year. It was a nerve-wracking decision, but I was so busy and couldn’t juggle it with my day job anymore. Thankfully it’s been a positive experience. This has been my busiest year yet, and I’ve gotten a lot better at managing stress and having a good work-life balance.
Madison Caprara:
A common thread I’m seeing among many in the industry, particularly coming off of this period of isolation.
What has been your favorite project you have been involved with?
Sofie Birkin:
It’s a toss-up between the Sex Ed book I brought out with Ruby Rare last year, and the erotic tarot deck that was just released through Laurence King a couple of weeks ago. They were both great experiences! Everyone on the projects was just an absolute delight to work with, and I’m really proud of the outcomes. Of course, I mostly work digitally, so it’s a lot of fun to get to hold something that’s only existed on your iPad for months as a physical object.
Madison Caprara:
I’m pretty sure I could make an accurate guess, but do you find yourself gravitating towards a specific subject matter or look?
Sofie Birkin:
Obviously, queer representation is a huge part of my work, but it would be regardless of the content matter. In my personal work I’m interested in women’s experiences, and particularly within historical themes like mid-century Americana and Ancient Greek mythology.
Madison Caprara:
Speaking of, what are your thoughts on the industry’s diversity and queer visibility? Something to work on?
Sofie Birkin:
It can always improve, of course, but I do think it’s improving. I would say the majority of my clients this year have overtly requested me because of the inclusivity of my illustrations. It gets complicated when the line between what’s in good faith and what’s a marketing ploy becomes blurred, but I try to be discerning and work with companies that seem authentic in their mission. Most of the art directors who hire me are queer themselves.
Madison Caprara:
That’s pretty inspiring to hear!
When you find yourself in a creative rut, where do you find yourself going?
Sofie Birkin:
I like looking to fashion photography and graphic design for inspiration, as well as historical content that’s entered the public domain.
Madison Caprara:
Well, I’ve really loved this conversation, Sofie. Unfortunately, we’ll have to start wrapping it up. Do you have any closing advice you would like to end on?
Sofie Birkin:
Honestly, I feel strongly about artists being paid fairly for their work, so I would say if anyone is getting into commercial illustration, reach out to folks for pricing advice. We’re a super friendly community! There’s not enough transparency in the industry, and I spent too long being underpaid because I was uncomfortable with asking for advice.
Instagram: @sofiebirkinillustration | Photographer: @onegungutty
Takeover Tuesday with dina Amin
Q&A with dina Amin, a Stop Motion Artist and Maker from Cairo, Egypt.
Q&A with dina Amin
Read time: 5min
Adult Swim Stop Motion ID | Client: Adult Swim, Animation: dina Amin
Madison Caprara:
Hey, dina! How’re you doing? Could you give us a little insight into you and your work?
dina Amin:
I am doing great thanks!
My name is dina Amin, I am a Stop Motion Artist and Maker from Cairo, Egypt.
Madison Caprara:
Now, I see that your BA is actually in industrial design, what prompted you to pivot away from that?
dina Amin:
It was a very unintended shift. After studying industrial design in Malaysia and coming back to Egypt, it was difficult to find opportunities. For a few years, I took on many different jobs, after a while, however, I began to feel lost. I loved industrial design, but hated a big part of the industry; most of the things we design end up being thrown away. So one day I decided to do the thing I loved the most.
There were many worries: “Is it a ‘real’ job?” “Where would it lead professionally?” “Will I be able to make money from it?” At the time, I didn’t have the answers, but I convinced myself that my true calling was to take products apart. I started doing so every weekend, until one day I decided to animate these parts using something I had learned about: stop motion. I was immediately hooked. For a year and a half, I would take apart a broken product and animate it coming together in new ways. This is how I taught myself animation.
Madison Caprara:
Wow, that takes an insane amount of self-discipline.
So what exactly is stop motion? How does it differ from other forms of animation?
dina Amin:
Stop motion is a form of handmade animation. Every component is real and is physically moved by the animator. You take a series of photos of an object and in each photo, you move the object slightly. When all these photos are played back-to-back, it appears as if the object is moving on its own.
What makes stop motion very different from other types of animation, is that it is a merging of two practices: animation and photography.
Madison Caprara:
What initially drew you to stop motion as opposed to other animating techniques?
dina Amin:
Stop motion is magical. I basically am constructing an illusion. We trick you into seeing something that isn’t real but looks as if it is. With stop motion, I can make any wild imagination into a fascinating reality.
Madison Caprara:
Do you see any intersection between the two: industrial design and stop motion?
dina Amin:
YES! I have learned that many industrial designers actually make the switch to stop motion. A large part of stop motion involves fabrication—whether it’s making the sets or fabricating the inner skeletons of a puppet. There is a lot of product design and engineering knowledge utilized. Knowing a lot about different materials is helpful as well. We are constantly problem-solving.
Madison Caprara:
And what steps did you take in pursuing it professionally? You mentioned that initially, you were self-taught.
dina Amin:
I am self-taught and mainly learned with consistent practice. Eventually, I started learning more skills like animation principles, cinematography, how to use lighting, video editing, and fabrication. Stop motion really is under the umbrella of many different fields, but with time and discipline, anyone can teach themselves.
Madison Caprara:
Do you have any resource or tutorial recommendations for those who may be interested in learning?
dina Amin:
Of course:
The Animator’s Survival Kit, by Richard Williams
My Skillshare course, Stop Motion for Beginners
My free printable and tutorial on how to make a certain character using stop motion
Kevin Parry’s intermediate course on stop motion
Edu Puertas’ Youtube
Guldies’ Patreon
My Patreon
AdeenaGrub’s Patreon
Terry Ibele’s, Animation Industry Podcast.
Madison Caprara:
Now having experienced both sides of the coin—formal education and self-teaching—where do you stand on the debate for/against pursuing a college degree? Is it essential for success in your opinion?
dina Amin:
There isn’t one option that’s better than the other. Even if you do pursue a degree, you’ll still be teaching yourself a lot of the skills. There is a lot of information out there, you can’t expect to get it from a single source or person. I see the term “self-teaching” as you WANTING to teach yourself, but not necessarily the same as you being your sole teacher. There is a difference.
When you are “self-taught” you are still learning from others who have put the information out there. Whether they know it or not, they were your teachers. So, the drive has to be there, even in college. Is a college degree essential to success? Absolutely not. It’s the desire-to-learn attitude that is essential. But one thing that college makes easier, if the student makes use of it, is the early network building and ease of establishing connections.
Madison Caprara:
Couldn’t agree with you more on that one.
Moulid Doll | Client: Zest, Animation: dina Amin
Madison Caprara:
Speaking on establishing connections, how did you go about cultivating and creating a community in an industry that was completely new to you?
dina Amin:
Completely new and almost nonexistent in Egypt! The short answer is...the internet. I met a lot of interesting people through my Instagram and made sure to spread my work on online blogs and editorials. Consequently, I started getting opportunities to speak at conferences and began meeting up with so many incredible creatives. My community kept growing and growing from there!
Madison Caprara:
On the flip side, what about creating client relationships?
dina Amin:
Very important! Client relations are the key to sustaining your work as a freelancer, or even if you are running your own studio. I prefer to work with clients I relate to. The work is “easy” and more fun if I love what they do or what they are creating. Everyone is working towards the same goal, that goal being to make the best deliverable for their product/service rather than “finishing another job.” Two completely different mentalities. These types of clients are easy to grow a relationship with, everyone is happy with the process and outcome, and they usually remember you for their next project.
Madison Caprara:
For curiosity’s sake, who was your first client or project?
dina Amin:
My first project was for BBC Arabic. They had interviewed me for a tv report and thought that I could make an intro for the show being that I knew both Arabic and English!
Madison Caprara:
Do you have a favorite stop motion work or artist?
dina Amin:
There are too many good ones, Guldies is my favorite, he has the best timing in his animations. The movements are so smooth and I like his imagination.
Madison Caprara:
Well, it’s been really great speaking with you, dina! I’ll admit, I didn’t know much about the stop motion side before this conversation.
Before we wrap it up, is there anything would like to end on?
dina Amin:
I’d advise anyone who would like to start learning stop motion to just go for it! Just do it. Don’t wait for the “right” tools or the “right” course. Take out your phone, download any stop motion app, and start moving things.
Takeover Tuesday with AppleButter Animated
Q&A with Megan Jedrysiak and Jackson Ammenheuser, Co-Founders of AppleButter Animated.
Q&A with AppleButter Animated
Read time: 10min
Sprite Way Series | Studio: Protokulture, Animation: Jackson Ammenheuser and Megan Jedrysiak
Madison Caprara:
Hey, you two!
Why don’t you both give me a little intro to who you are? How did you find yourselves in this industry? What initially attracted you to the field?
AppleButter Animated:
We are Megan Jedrysiak and Jackson Ammenheuser, Co-Founders of AppleButter Animated, based out of Chicago. We love to skate, play soccer, sing karaoke, and eat food. When we aren’t doing those things, we like to experiment with animation production practices! Lately, we’ve been expanding our efforts in the motion process by taking elements of digital animation (graphics, motion, sound, automation) and presenting them in both physical and streaming spaces with our own machines and graphics.
We both studied Animation at DePaul University and jumped into freelance work right out of school. I wouldn’t suggest going straight to freelance to anyone today, but it luckily worked out for us. We were both initially attracted to the independence and energy of experimental animation, and loved that you didn’t need to wait for an art show, or a budget, or a crew. You don’t need to ask permission to do anything, just go animate!
Madison Caprara:
I’m assuming you both met in one of your Animation courses, or..?
AppleButter Animated:
We actually met in a computer lab at DePaul.
We would work on 3D animation homework together. It involved a lot of sugary snack consumption and Megan playing cool music videos. Eventually, we started dating, made a few projects together, and chose to continue doing so after graduation, mostly so that we could continue to eat snacks and watch cool music videos together while we worked.
Madison Caprara:
A pretty enviable meet-cute!
So, how did AppleButter Animated come to be? Was there a particular influence or circumstance that prompted you to start the studio?
AppleButter Animated:
AppleButter started right when we graduated university, seven years ago. We wanted to keep making our own work and gave it a shot! We figured that we could always jump ship and go to a 9-5 if there was a disaster. It was a struggle for the first few years, including a couple of side hustles, but we got there! We were hugely inspired by our friends Nick and Nadine, who run a two-person graphic art studio in Chicago, Sonnenzimmer. They seemed to have it all as a couple with a small creative business and art practice. We thought we would try the same thing!
GFXi | Client: GFXi, Animation: Jackson Ammenheuser, Design: Megan Jedrysiak
Madison Caprara:
A pretty courageous endeavor being new graduates!
How would you describe the studio’s style?
AppleButter Animated:
We like to make things fast, at least in animator terms. I hope that comes across in our style. There’s this idea that animation has to take forever to be good, and we just don’t believe that. Our work ranges in style, but almost every one of our projects takes less than a week to make.
We strive to make hybrid-style energetic work that leaves an impression and might make you double-take. We like to wait for ideas that make you laugh even if they’re not funny. Some of our best ideas emulate jokes in that way, or at least point to a punchline.
Madison Caprara:
I see that you specialize in short-form animation and interactive art. What draws you to the two?
AppleButter Animated:
We get excited about all things motion. Deep down, robotics and animation are extremely similar on a structural level: build a thing and make it move. Even Megan’s painting work breaks down a 2D image informed by motion in our animation practice. We are really attracted to that energy that you can give an object, space, or video when you make it move. There is a lot of power there, we hope to push what animation means way outside of motion graphics and the moving image ballpark.
Madison Caprara:
How does the studio work in terms of project selection, work process, etc.? How do you go about delineating tasks between the two of you?
AppleButter Animated:
We like to say that Megan is great at starting things and Jackson is good at finishing them.
That pretty much describes our pipeline most of the time. Megan has a much stronger art and drawing background, while Jackson studied the more 3D and technical side of creative. Megan will typically kick ideas off with research, drawings, boards, and styleframes, then we’ll meet in the middle to do design, motion tests, and development. Typically Jackson will do the final motion, VFX, and polish. There is a lot of collaboration and discussion at all points but that vaguely fits most of the time.
Madison Caprara:
That being said, what do you both look for when taking on a project? What has you giving an automatic, “yes”?
AppleButter Animated:
For commercial work, an automatic “yes” is a good producer! Having the budget, timeline, scope, mood, brand guidelines, all laid out before we even speak is the dream! When it comes to ad work, we care more about working with good folks and being treated with respect than working on the “sickest” projects.
For our artwork, we love to collaborate and interact with friends. Our animation work was so siloed for a long time, and we’re really over that style of making. We live for that back and forth of ideas between collaborators, even when it all goes wrong. Sharing the highs and lows and taking a leap together is what it’s all about.
Madison Caprara:
Speaking on collaboration, do you ever outsource talent for larger projects?
AppleButter Animated:
We try to do 100% of the work ourselves. We’re just not that type of studio that hires out other animation freelancers. If we can’t do a project for whatever reason, we try to pass along the work to friends! We enjoy working with musicians, directors, and writers of course, but for the animation work, we plan on keeping it between the two of us.
Madison Caprara:
And what has been your favorite project to date?
AppleButter Animated:
Our favorite project was a duo gallery show at Public Works Gallery. We pulled it off right before the pandemic. The show allowed us to try so many new ideas that would be exhibited in a physical space. World-building is inherent in animated films, but films are typically viewed in a 2D space. We were able to produce a more immersive world with our animation, paintings, and painting robot living together all in one space. That process and engagement from all the folks who showed up inspired us. We're hoping to push further into that space over the next couple of years.
Madison Caprara:
Well, the exhibition looked incredible! Readers can find it here.
Madison Caprara:
When needed, where do you go for inspiration?
AppleButter Animated:
We try to look beyond film for inspiration. Engaging with stories and visual languages as much as possible, and seeking out new experiences informs our vision. If we’re stuck or looking for something new, we go for a walk, develop recipes, eat a good snack, look at paintings, read books or comics, garden, and talk with friends. Looking at a problem from a wider view usually helps us understand what we’re really trying to get at.
Also, this isn't traditional inspiration, but whenever we need some energy in the moment, say a project is going poorly, or we lost the thread of an idea, we always pull up an old friend’s class film. He made it in a late-night daze for an experimental animation class. The assignment was misunderstood by most of the class and the professor was not happy during the screening, but this project was the cherry on top. It just went really wrong, including some major sound goofs, and somehow it went wrong just enough times to turn into one of our all-time favorite films. It brings back the wild energy we love every time.
Away From Keyboard Residency | WNDR Museum, Chicago
Madison Caprara:
What were some of the best decisions you’ve made vs ones you wish you could redo? As a studio or even individual artists?
AppleButter Animated:
Collaborating with friends and being a part of our larger animation and art community has been our most positive experience as artists and animators. We’ve learned so much working with great folks on personal projects and commercial ones. It opens up a field of possibilities from collaborating with one friend, to working with a group at a studio, to inviting a general internet audience to work with us on a robotic painting.
Our biggest mistake is the other side of that coin, which is initially believing that animation and art need to be this silo-ed sport. I think many could attest to the running joke of the lone animation martyr stuck in their cave. And maybe that’s how you like to work, but it doesn’t have to be that way!
Madison Caprara:
I’m sure some folks out there can definitely relate.
What advice would you give to someone thinking of starting a studio?
AppleButter Animated:
For people who generally want to step away from full-time employment and do their own thing, I would suggest doing your research, understanding your safety net, and talking to people who are where you want to be! For us, that meant talking to our studio idols about all sorts of things from clients to art galleries to day-to-day expectations. Jackson talked to his parents about helping us if we got into a bind, luckily we’ve avoided needing help. But it is important to know it’s there and recognize that we couldn’t have done this without that privilege. We also read everything we could about freelance, from books like The Freelance Manifesto, to online forums, and going to local mo-graph meetups and animation festivals.
Madison Caprara:
Are there any big upcoming projects in development we should be looking out for from AppleButter?
AppleButter Animated:
As spaces are starting to open again, we have a few space-based ideas we are pitching around that we love! One involves a DIY Smart CRT TV that would serve as an ongoing local animation festival with a vintage edge, think flipping through channels and classic commercials. We're working on adding a comparative graphic vision system to our painting machine, this process would compare the live painting to a graphic or photo, and update accordingly. And we’re excited about this new 3D smear style that we’ve been having a lot of fun with on Instagram.
Madison Caprara:
That sounds really exciting! After a year+ of social isolation, an interactive exhibit is particularly enticing.
Unfortunately, we’re reaching the end of our time together. It’s been really great getting to know a bit more about the two of you and your studio. Is there any closing point or piece of advice you would like to end our chat with?
AppleButter Animated:
Have fun! Speak from what you know, be open to learning and making mistakes, and be the kind of nerd that only you can be!
Takeover Tuesday with Arman Alipour
Q&A with Arman Alipour, a Motion Graphic Designer based in Johannesburg, South Africa, and Co-Founder of HappyGoat Studio.
Q&A with Arman Alipour
Read time: 5min
Madison Caprara:
Hey, Arman! Why don’t we start off by having you give an introduction to yourself and your work?
Arman Alipour:
Hello, I'm Arman. I was born in 1987 and have been drawing since I can remember. I was 17 when I developed an interest in animation if I remember correctly.
I started early on doing motion tests, making a few short animated films. Around six years ago, during which I was mainly illustrating, I began creating animations. They were mostly motion graphics in adverts. However, during the gaps between projects, I would create short animation loops all of which you can view on my current socials.
Madison Caprara:
Now, I see that you are one of the Co-Founders of HappyGoat Studio! Before making the leap to opening your own studio, what did your professional journey look like?
Arman Alipour:
HappyGoat was actually not my first studio. I've established two others, the first of which was engaged in film montages. With the second studio, I worked with motion graphics and social marketing. However, Happygoat’s focus has been on getting projects to be closer to the look and feel of my personal work. Before, I had been focused on finding my own style and gaining experience. Just learning the industry ropes really.
Madison Caprara:
And what ultimately prompted you to start HappyGoat after already having established the previous two?
Arman Alipour:
Some of my friends and I were extremely like-minded. We eventually came together to deliver better quality creative works. I believe that teamwork is far more effective and fruitful than working alone.
Madison Caprara:
Where does the studio’s name come from, if you don’t mind me asking?
Ali Alipour:
I found the name very funny. I remember seeing a video on Instagram which depicted this beach. The sunshine on the water made it all so colorful, and there was this extremely happy goat jumping around. The atmosphere was surreal, you could tell the goat was happy. I liked the image a lot and recommended it to my friends. They welcomed it!
Madison Caprara:
So funny! It’s a unique name, so I had to ask.
What were some first steps in the early days? Where did you begin?
Arman Alipour:
As I mentioned, it was not my first studio so it was not that big of a challenge. I had previously worked with this group on other projects. We all knew exactly what to do.
Madison Caprara:
You were pretty much experts at studio openings at that point! How do you feel like HappyGoat has changed from those early days?
Arman Alipour:
You know, since our inception, we have done all kinds of work. We have collaborated with all sorts of artists. And in most of the cases, our clients were perfectly satisfied. This really raised our confidence, while also turning HappyGoat into a studio that almost everyone in the business knows about. Therefore, a higher quantity and more interesting projects are being offered to us now than there was in the beginning.
Madison Caprara:
What would you say is HappyGoat’s signature style or clientele type?
Arman Alipour:
The mood that we evoke is usually surreal and a bit dark, the clientele approve of our style though. They mostly emphasize that concepts should be conveyed explicitly, which we are not in favor of.
Madison Caprara:
Would you say that your style and preferred projects are the same as the studio’s?
Arman Alipour:
Yes, I work with a group of people who are mentally similar to me, therefore the atmospheres that we create during projects are usually the same.
Madison Caprara:
You freelance as well, correct? How do you balance your freelance work with that of HappyGoat’s?
Arman Alipour:
Yes, that is true. Oftentimes, I try to juggle my personal tasks with those in the studio which, of course, leaves me totally exhausted at times. However, if needed, I'll attend to the business in the studio and then do my own work after hours.
Madison Caprara:
And how do you go about approaching a project? What does your personal creative process look like?
Arman Alipour:
As a rule, my friends and I arrange meetings in which we exchange ideas so that a basic concept is introduced. Next, the writer of the team will write the story. I'll then do the storyboarding. Brainstorming is a completely collective task, as is decision-making.
Madison Caprara:
How do you stay consistently inspired when brainstorming original ideas for projects? I imagine your plate is pretty full with studio and personal work.
Arman Alipour:
You bet! I always try to set aside time for observation. I browse various websites, check the latest works of other studios and artists. It keeps me motivated and gives me new ideas.
Madison Caprara:
Before I forget to ask, what is the creative industry like in Johannesburg? Has it changed much since your beginning?
Arman Alipour:
Working conditions, I think, are the same all over the world. The clients expect the best. This is also the case in Johannesburg. I think we've been able to win the trust of more and more individuals and companies. That in itself is great progress, isn't it?
Madison Caprara:
For sure. What’s a relationship without trust, you know?
Well, it’s been great getting to know you, Arman. Do you have any parting words or advice you’d like to share?
Arman Alipour:
Never stop learning!
Takeover Tuesday with Her Afternoon
Q&A with Her Afternoon, a Hong Kong based Illustrator with a love for both minimalism and surrealism.
Q&A with Her Afternoon
Read time: 5min
Madison Caprara:
Hi there! I really appreciate you taking the time to chat with me. Could you give us a little background on yourself and your work?
Her Afternoon:
Hello. I operate under the pseudonym, Her Afternoon. I am both from and based in Hong Kong. I consider myself a multi-faceted person who vacillates between rationality and emotionality. Though I hate conflict, I am fond of contrast; shadow/light, love/hatred, lost/found, holding on/letting go, so on and so forth. I hope my artwork can reflect the simplicity of nature and, at the same time, show the complexity of humanity.
Madison Caprara:
Wonderful, and how did “Her Afternoon” come to be?
Her Afternoon:
It was a random thought, born on an ordinary afternoon.
Madison Caprara:
Now, I’m looking at your portfolio right now, it’s almost dreamlike; very soft, painterly, absolutely beautiful. I’m reminded of watercolors. Tell us a bit about your aesthetic. How did you go about identifying and perfecting your style?
Her Afternoon:
My work falls into the realms of minimalism and surrealism. To me, art transcends where boundaries do not exist. You might often find naked persons in my work, sometimes it’s a girl, sometimes a boy, sometimes a unisex baby. It can be difficult to see the faces of the persons, but their emotions are there. You can feel them if you allow yourself to do so. My aesthetic is about sensing and exploring. I perfect my style via continuous experimentation.
Madison Caprara:
In regards to these experimentations, do you find yourself drawing inspiration from any particular source?
Her Afternoon:
The work of Haruki Murakami inspires me a lot, especially his books about solitude and relationship. Another source of my inspiration comes from modern poems.
Madison Caprara:
Haruki Murakami...I see where you get your love for surrealism!
Now, thinking about your process, what is your favorite medium and why?
Her Afternoon:
I like pencil sketching. It’s raw and straightforward. I also like its softness and lightness.
Madison Caprara:
Do you allow your art to play a role in your life outside of work? How has it changed your relationship with people and the world as a whole? Particularly within the last year?
Her Afternoon:
I believe art and life cannot be completely separated. They are interlocked, two sides of the same coin. My life influences my art as much as my art affects my life. Last year was a difficult but special time for me. You may easily find sadness, anxiety, and grief in my work. While acknowledging and depicting the pains and sorrows of life, I also wanted to convey the future hopes and dreams implied. If my work happens to change anything in this world, I wish it to create a room for people. A room where you can find peace and hope no matter how chaotic the world is. I wish to create a relaxing afternoon for people who enjoy my art.
Madison Caprara:
We do a good job at harping on all of the lows of last year. The things that we lost, without really crediting what we’ve gained: stronger relationships, better self-advocacy in the workplace, maybe even a new skill.
Madison Caprara:
As I said before, your work lends this sense of serenity. However, your subjects look to be struggling with some inner battle. Is there some underlying theme or emotion you’re trying to convey with your works?
Her Afternoon:
One of the main themes surrounding my work is the ultimate dilemma of solitude vs. human connectedness. We are alone and together, in different levels and contexts. It is that constant struggle and search for mankind that my work attempts to explore and reflect.
Madison Caprara:
And have you always leaned towards minimalism?
Her Afternoon:
So far, yes.
Madison Caprara:
Despite their visual simplicity, your pieces convey so much, humanity’s solitude vs connectedness as you said. How have you managed to do this?
Her Afternoon:
I observe and pay attention to every little detail in daily life, like the faces in a crowd, the passage of the moon, or the summer breeze. I try to make sense of all these experiences and translate them into drawings or words.
Madison Caprara:
The little things.
Looking into the future, what would be your dream project or collaboration?
Her Afternoon:
I would be really excited if I could collaborate with my favorite writer Haruki Murakami.
Madison Caprara:
How do you think the industry will change over the next decade?
Her Afternoon:
It’s a really difficult question. The future is always in flux, but I think collectivity is always in the air. We as people belong to a whole, and one of the interesting things about the art world is that it allows you to pose questions about the nature of that belonging over and over again.
Madison Caprara:
This has been such a great conversation. I really appreciate you taking the time. Before we wrap it up, is there any point you would like to close with?
Her Afternoon:
Be true to yourself and embrace your inner conflicts. They imply your individuality and complexity.
Takeover Tuesday with Luddo
Q&A with Luddo, a Freelance Illustrator and Designer based in Buenos Aires, Argentina.
Luddo's work illustrates the contemporary world of fashion and products, combining playful abstractions and relaxed characters with bold and pastel color compositions. The majority of her work is in fashion illustration and surface design for packaging and branding. She defines herself as a lover of interior design, fashion, and product trends.
Q&A with Luddo
Read time: 5min
Madison Caprara:
Hey, Luddo! Thanks for taking the time to chat with me! Why don’t you give us a little introduction to yourself and your work?
Luddo:
Hey! Thanks for having me. I’m Luddo, a Designer and Illustrator based in Buenos Aires, Argentina. My work illustrates the contemporary world of fashion and products, combining playful abstractions and relaxed characters with funky color compositions. I am always looking for new ways in which I can play around with color!
I identify as a lover of interior design, fashion, and new product trends. I love bringing these passions into my characters and environments while creating a world that I can feel personally related to.
Madison Caprara:
How did you originally find yourself in the creative industry?
Luddo:
I always knew that I wanted to be in a creative field, but it took me some time to define which path I naturally wanted to be a part of. I have a degree in Industrial Design, so that first lead me to working as an Art Director at a stationery brand. With that work, I came to understand that I really loved the graphic side of the products. That understanding lead me to branding, and finally, illustration, which is what I specialize in nowadays. Looking back, I just allowed myself to move forward in what I was most interested in. At the end of the day, it is amazingly satisfying to be working in what I loved doing most as a child--we should acknowledge those early signs more often.
Madison Caprara:
I agree! Too often, I think, adults brush off children’s interests as fleeting hobbies.
Your work is really interesting! I get the sense that you primarily work within the fashion realm, both for clothes and product branding. Was this decision intentional? After recognizing your love for illustration, did you go in realizing that the fashion industry was the sector you were most interested in, or was it something realized with time?
Luddo:
I always loved fashion, and at the same time, I try to illustrate my world of interests. That being said, it's something that came naturally to me. If I’m obsessed with any outfits or trends, you’ll definitely see it in my work! I remember when I was around 10 years old, I had a sketchbook in which I created outfits for characters. So happily, that hasn’t changed much.
Madison Caprara:
Speaking of product branding, you have your shop where folks can purchase home decor with your designs. How did you find yourself getting into product sales?
Luddo:
As I come from the product field, I find it amazing when you can create personalized products with your illustrations. Seeing your art come to life is really satisfying. Apart from my actual shop, I also love to work on projects that involve materializing my illustrations in other mediums. As a fashion lover, it would be amazing to work with clothing someday.
Madison Caprara:
Is there a distinct difference between creating for your own products and clients? Do you have a preference?
Luddo:
Yes! Working with your own personal products is more open. You can be involved in every decision and detail. But when it comes to client products, it’s more common to be given a single area in which the graphics will be applied. Usually, the canvas of the product is already designed and involves really small costs that were analyzed internally to be able to mass-produce it.
Madison Caprara:
Do you have any advice for other creatives who may be interested in applying their works to personal product sales?
Luddo:
I would say that creativity is all about practice and trying new things, so move forward!
Also, I think that personal projects are an amazing tool to showcase yourself as the best creative version of what you want to be. No one is involved there so you can truly show 100% of yourself. Use that chance to show the kind of work you want to be hired for.
Madison Caprara:
When working on your own personal projects, do you have a favorite subject matter you like to work with? Any particular passions?
Luddo:
The subject always changes, so I can focus on a new thing that I want to showcase or current obsessions that I need to express. I love doing personal projects, though! They are really important for my growth.
Madison Caprara:
Now, are you currently working as a freelancer?
Luddo:
Yes! I'm full-time freelancing right now, however, this change is pretty recent. I'm really enjoying my first year on my own. I'm happy to have taken this big step, my work has grown so much this year and I am excited to soon show the new projects I've been working on!
Madison Caprara:
Congratulations on taking the plunge! What sparked the change?
Luddo:
I've worked within a company for five years and I felt it was time to follow another direction. I needed to make my side job my full-time. It was the only way to grow with what I wanted to do, so for my birthday, I said, “ok, let's do this!”
Madison Caprara:
I’m sure that felt crazy liberating!
Looking at some of your freelance work, who has been your favorite client or project?
Luddo:
I've worked with Badoo dating on a new project that I'm excited to share soon.
Madison Caprara:
We’ll definitely be keeping an eye out for that one.
Now you said you are currently based in Buenos Aires, yes? What is the creative industry like there?
Luddo:
The creative industry in Argentina in general has amazing artists! There is so much talent! Our industry is beginning to open up to working more on worldwide and international projects, so I'm really happy that we are showing our voices and perspectives to the world.
Madison Caprara:
Where do you find yourself seeking inspiration when in a creative rut?
Luddo:
I would say that I use Pinterest and Instagram to see images that inspire me. But when I need clarity, I'm more about just going to walk my dog, or in general, leaving the screens. That usually brings me better ideas.
Madison Caprara:
I really appreciate you taking the time for a chat, Luddo. We’re reaching the tail end of this Q&A. Before we sign off, do you have any closing statements or advice you’d like to share?
Luddo:
Keep moving forward! Everything will find its place along the way.
Takeover Tuesday with Sawako Kabuki
Q&A with Sawako Kabuki, a freelance Illustrator and Animator based in Tokyo who started off her career working for a popular Japanese porn video company.
Sawako graduated with a bachelor’s in graphic design from Tama Art University and later completed her master's. Her films have been awarded at more than 20 international festivals such as Zagreb, Rotterdam, Annecy, Ottawa, and SXSW.
Q&A with Sawako Kabuki
Read time: 3min
Madison Caprara:
Hi Sawako! Thank you for taking the time to speak with me! Why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself?
Sawako Kabuki:
Hello! I am a freelance Animator and Illustrator. Though I mainly work on animations, which can be hard and tiring, I try to do some illustrative work once in a while. It’s a good change and sort of an escape from reality.
Madison Caprara:
You are based in Tokyo, correct? What is the creative industry like there?
Sawako Kabuki:
I don't think it's that different from the U.S. Though when I usually tell people that I work in animation, they immediately think of Japanese "anime". Therefore, in moments when I don't want to have a conversation taking the time to explain, because it can be too much trouble, for example, at a hair salon, I’ll lie and say I'm a web designer or something similar.
Madison Caprara:
That’s funny! I imagine it can get a bit exhausting having to constantly explain what you do for a living.
Madison Caprara:
I see on your website that you originally started out working for a porn video company. That’s a really unique segway into the industry. I was wondering if you could tell us a little about that?
Sawako Kabuki:
When I was looking for a job in my fourth year of university, I saw a posting on a job-search website. The largest adult video company in Japan was hiring. I thought it was cool! So, I applied and was accepted after three interviews and an internship. I quit after about six months.
Madison Caprara:
You have a very distinct style. I’m a big fan! What went into figuring out your unique look?
Sawako Kabuki:
Thank you so much! I don't know to be honest, but I draw butts a lot because I find them calming to look at and draw.
Madison Caprara:
Speaking of butts, you utilize a lot of nudity and sexual references within your work. Do you believe your time within the porn industry played an influence or is that all you?
Sawako Kabuki:
I don’t think it acted as an influence at all because I had many works with these themes, even before I entered the porn industry.
Madison Caprara:
And is there any overlying message you continuously try to portray within your works? Anything specific you feel passionate about - other than butts?
Sawako Kabuki:
Honestly, I want kids to be fascinated and influenced by my work.
Madison Caprara:
Now you’ve had a crazy variety when it comes to projects, from animated music videos to illustrated narratives. Are there any particularly crazy client stories you can share?
Sawako Kabuki:
When I made a music video for a rock band, the animation was a little too extreme for them. It had to be released on a limited basis, meaning, only the people who bought the CD could see it. I don’t think that was very punk rock of them.
Madison Caprara:
Not very punk rock at all. Looking forward, are there any new projects we should be watching out for from you?
Sawako Kabuki:
I’ve been working on an original short film with MIYU productions in France, and it’s almost finished. The title is, I'm late. It’s an animated documentary that focuses on the experiences of people missing their period or being “late.”
Madison Caprara:
Something I’m sure a lot of women can level with. I’ll definitely be keeping an eye out for that one!
Madison Caprara:
Having both partnered with studies and gone solo, how do you prefer to work? Individually or on a team?
Sawako Kabuki:
I definitely prefer to work individually.
Madison Caprara:
And has the pandemic affected that at all? Whether it be with your access to work/clients or your creativity levels?
Sawako Kabuki:
I have an installation work that I spent a lot of time on, but because of the pandemic, I couldn't show it to the public. The project team was disbanded. I’m still sad about it.
Madison Caprara:
Damn, I’m really sorry to hear that. I’m sure it was really disappointing to put in all the work, just for it to fall through. Hopefully, with numbers dropping and the world beginning to slowly open up, it’s something you can circle back to.
I know a lot of creatives were dealing with that inspiration rut during the lockdown, when you find yourself going through something similar, where do you go for inspiration?
Sawako Kabuki:
I have a stair climber in my room, and I get a lot of inspiration when I'm on it.
Madison Caprara:
That’s a first! Well, you’ve been a delight, Sawako. To wrap it up for the good readers, do you have any closing points you’d like to end on?
Sawako Kabuki:
I hope for happy sex for all humanity!
Takeover Tuesday with Dennis Quiñones
Q&A with Dennis Quiñones, an Illustrator and Graphic Designer based in Bogotá, Colombia.
Q&A with Dennis Quiñones
Read time: 10min
Madison Caprara:
Hi, Dennis! Could you start us off with a little introduction to yourself and your work? How did you find yourself in this industry?
Dennis Quiñones:
Hi everyone! I’m Dennis Quiñones, a Colombian Freelance Illustrator. I’m the girl behind Dess Artist, the nickname or character by which I identify my work. Since I was a child I enjoyed art. Drawing was a great hobby in school, although I did not consider that I did it well. Still, I enjoyed it very much.
I thought I would study something related to fashion but decided to go with graphic design. This experience showed me a broader picture after which, I was more inclined to focus on animation. I still get excited when I see my characters in motion, however, my heart always leans towards illustration. When combined that with the knowledge of design and animation, these skills have opened doors within the industry. I worked as a Designer and Art Director for a few companies in my country, however, I felt that there was something more waiting for me. Without a definite plan, I decided to quit, and that is how Dess Artist was born.
Dennis Quiñones:
Starting out as an independent is a somewhat uncertain path, but I knew that if I did my part and gave my best I only had to trust that it was possible to make my way. It’s amazing how my hobby became my job and how this industry keeps opening doors for me. I have had the opportunity to work in many different sectors; illustrating for brands in advertising formats, in musical projects for renowned artists like Pink (great experience), for editorial magazines, and blogs. Something I am currently working on that makes me excited is my personal project, with a focus on empowerment.
Madison Caprara:
From fashion to graphic design, direction to illustration...how did you go about finding and shaping your artistic style? Do you have any specific creative influences?
Dennis Quiñones:
It’s funny that you ask this question, I believe that I am constantly shaping my style. There is no limit. I feel that it will continue to mutate, and as I change, my experiences, opinions, my way of seeing the world, my art will as well. Being open to that change and exploration has been a key factor in my process. That being said, I feel I have a vibrant, colorful style. Something that defines me as a communicator is versatility. Being willing to explore has made me discover different skills, mixed techniques, and styles that enrich my work and my experiences. I believe this makes me more attractive to clients that are looking to approach different projects and styles. Of course, it also enriches my work and life.
I think I have many influences. At a creative and technical level: the environment, culture, relationships, travels. We all influence each other, sometimes without even realizing it. Everything is an inspiration. Everything is material to create. Colleagues and friends with whom I share and with whom I work, of course, influence me, and vice versa. The time we are in, the internet, everything has an inherent influence, even the art from thousands of years ago. Today, after almost ten years of learning Egyptian art from my art history class, I am still so fascinated with it. There is a detail that I include in many of my characters, I use the position of the frontal eyes even if the characters are in profile. I recognize that this decision comes from those historical influences.
Dennis Quiñones:
I currently have the desire to work from different places. My work allows me to do so. When looking at the history of art, I find myself gravitating towards Impressionism. These artists took part in the development of landscape oil paintings, representing their environment. It is curious how nowadays, with the boom in travel, these phenomena are happening again. Though they are, of course, presented differently, but are ultimately similar in essence.
Madison Caprara:
You had briefly mentioned how culture influences your work. Can you go a bit into how exactly your specific cultural background does so?
Dennis Quiñones:
My work, my opinion, and my person are a reflection of the society in which I live and the decisions that I make. What I feel, the situations I am familiar with, the beliefs I carry, and the culture in which I develop as a person, give me context. They give me an opinion that I intrinsically reflect in my work. I have a particular interest in illustrating women in my personal work. I enjoy putting them in the attitude of a businesswoman; powerful and capable. Why? When I look inside of myself, I find that I come from a matriarchal family; strong women who have worked hard to get ahead.
With that, I understand why I want to display these messages. I use my work to tell myself how valuable and capable I am, and of course also to all those who identify with it. In the field of illustration, I find welcome refuge. I believe it is everything that is right in the world, it is my safe place. I constantly hear that as creatives we should think outside the box, however, it is complex to do so when the action of creating is born from our experiences and what we know. So if I can lend any advice, it would be to live new experiences and interact in new cultures, travel, and expand that box.
Madison Caprara:
Speaking of travel, where are you currently based? What’s the creative industry like there?
Dennis Quiñones:
I live in Bogota! Being the capital of Colombia, it is a city where most of the companies in the creative sector are concentrated, followed by Medellin and Cali. Bogota has a lot of experience in this sector, which is why large international audiovisual production companies such as Dynamo, Jaguar Bite, Sony Pictures, Fox Telecolombia, among others, have chosen it as the headquarters of their operations. I recently read that 80% of the audiovisual industry exports originate here in Bogota.
When I had the opportunity to work with Pink, most of the creative team was Colombian. Thanks to the work of the project’s director, Colombia was being recognized! I remember the excitement I felt when I read the news headlines that said, “Colombians working with Pink.” After that, I have seen artists like Rihanna, Dua Lipa, and Zia, who have opted for the Colombian market. It’s incredible and has brought with it reflections on the matter. I know that the industry is segmented. Many of us struggle a lot for those opportunities. Here in Colombia, we have a lot of talented, highly qualified people, but from my personal experience, it looks as if we have better remuneration than what we actually do. This makes us reflect.
Madison Caprara:
Now, we’ve spoken about the industry in Bogotá. Can you speak a bit about how you found yourself where you are today? I see you were self-taught for the most part, how did you go about educating yourself?
Dennis Quiñones:
It is true that I have spent a lot of time studying on my own. One thing that was made clear to me is that if you want to improve your skills, you must study and practice. However, studying graphic design gave me a foundation and broadened my outlook, and there is where I met animation. I loved the idea that illustrations could have more movement. But yes, to specialize in illustration I spent a lot of time behind the screen exploring techniques, relying on online courses, and asking colleagues with experience in the sector. People who give you real feedback are valuable. You begin to understand how to accept constructive criticism and take advantage of it.
I also remember buying an annual subscription to Schoolism, where I had access to courses with Disney and Pixar artists. For the most part, I utilized many online tutorials, some bought while other times, friends who noticed my interest granted me access to their courses. While this happened, I was working in an agency, and I have to emphasize that the greatest learning tool has been working on real projects. The experience given while “doing” is indispensable. It is a profession of constantly learning, there are always new tools and new ways to go about solving a problem. Now when I approach a project, I know that I will learn something new.
Madison Caprara:
Now, for other creatives going down the self-taught route, do you have any advice on advocating for or marketing themselves in an industry that is overly saturated with talented artists?
Dennis Quiñones:
Of course! I can think of three indispensable pieces of advice:
1.) Be brave and share your work, processes, and concerns with other artists who have more experience. Relating with people in the industry is important, something that expanded my work is to understand that other artists and illustrators are a team and not competition. You have to understand that your path is unique, you should not compare yourself. There is room for everyone within this industry, it is amazing how this change of mentality makes you go from having two hands to having four or six for a project because those colleagues are who you team up with. They are also the ones who recommend you for other projects or vice versa.
2.) Be present on social networks. Show people that you exist. Show both your personal and commercial projects, your processes, your changes, and your evolution. That creates community. You are not only showing a piece, you are exposing yourself as a human being in each work.
3.)Attend and participate in creative sector events, exhibitions, contests, etc. This way you can cultivate more relationships with people. More support. More feedback.
Madison Caprara:
So what I take from that is to really get yourself out there, both in the physical and digital worlds.
Now, what is the range of projects you have worked on? Do you have a favorite medium or subject?
Dennis Quiñones:
Thinking about this question makes me smile. I do a mental recap and feel very fortunate to have had the opportunity to work on so many different projects. My favorites are definitely those that have carried a message of empowerment while allowing me to explore in color. I have a particular taste for those that highlight the role of women.
In my experience, I have been able to work in different media; in advertising for national and international brands, in publishing, participating in children’s education books, blogs, magazines with articles for creatives, also in the audiovisual medium, with corporate videos, experimental music videos, all while selling my personal art to independent figures for textile media.
Madison Caprara:
Quite the roster, Dess!
Going back to your love for character design. Is there a certain methodology or process you revert to when designing characters? Do you have a preferred look or style?
Dennis Quiñones:
When I design characters, it is important for me to know in which media the character is going to interact; if it is for animation or for print because that will determine how I go about the “how”. However, beyond the technique, my starting point will always be the “what”; understanding the personality, what he/she/it does, behavior, hobbies, are they being used to tell a story? Regardless of whether it is for a client or for a personal project, I like to have a brief. They help me in understanding the clear path to success. The more questions or potential problems I solve beforehand, the better.
For example, say that the requirement is to create a woman who lives on the beach. She has a cabin with surfboards. Surely our mind starts to generate questions, so we begin to create her story. Is she an old woman who no longer practices and keeps her boards from her exploits? Maybe she exudes nostalgia? Is she young and still practices and has many boards because she constantly participates in competitions? Is she older with a young soul, so she continues practicing and has a school where she teaches others? When you define what story you want to tell, you have a guide, where to start.
Dennis Quiñones:
From there it is easier. You know who the character is talking to. You establish if they are a main or secondary character, what they want to convey, how they present their personality, looks, how they dress. Personally, I love creating characters for animation frame by frame; all the views and expressions. But creating them for prints where you have a single frame to convey that story is also fascinating. I love the challenge, therefore I couldn’t choose one methodology. I love them both.
Madison Caprara:
How has your work shifted due to the pandemic? By work, that can mean access to it, your creative drive, anything really!
Dennis Quiñones:
It has changed, but not drastically. I had been working from home for four years with different clients. When the pandemic began, I was working predominantly on visuals for concerts that were canceled, as gatherings would not be allowed for a while. However, they were not my only source of work, so I was able to continue with other projects and clients. I felt very lucky. My colleagues and I are very fortunate to have been able to continue working while this was all going on and to be able to support our families. In fact, the work was enhanced. I worked with artists whose videos would be animated versions of themselves due to the estrangement. This instilled in me the concept that there are always opportunities and helped me to take the first step in starting my own t-shirt brand. It’s still a baby.
Madison Caprara:
Well, that’s exciting! Looking forward to seeing the merch!
Pandemic-related obstacles aside, what do you feel is the most challenging aspect of illustrative work? What’s the most rewarding?
Dennis Quiñones:
Perhaps one of the most difficult things is finding your own voice. When you start off in the industry, you have references to follow. Naturally, you want to follow in their footsteps. While it is part of the exploration process, you will never be the same person who creates the same art. It is nice to see what works for you and what does not from the processes of others and thus discovering your own path. Though it can be frustrating at times, the only thing to do is to continue on with what you are and what you have. It is enough to start your own path.
I had to understand that frustrations are a normal part of the process. The most gratifying thing in my story is that in illustration I found refuge. I found a way to express myself. A place where I could come back and find myself whenever I felt lost. An industry that values my abilities and does not stop giving me opportunities to grow and learn. A place where my hobby became my job and has allowed me to materialize other dreams. That is beautiful!
Madison Caprara:
You have such an incredibly optimistic way of looking at the world. It’s really inspiring.
Where do you find yourself consistently going for inspiration?
Dennis Quiñones:
I have physical places and metaphorical places. Living in the mountains near a forest, I have had an incredible place to think. However, in search of contrasts, I like to visit the beach. I love the sea. Whenever I have the opportunity to go, I take advantage of it.
I also have a notebook filled with my ideas; words, concepts, sometimes phrases, random marks. It is a place where I always find inspiration. They are most often ideas that are a result of places I go, people I meet, flavors I taste, songs I listen to, existential doubts, the market list, something I want to learn, etc. They appear at any time, so I write them down. Sometimes they make no sense, and other times they give rise to very significant pieces. If at some point, I don’t know what to draw I start reading this notebook looking for options.
Madison Caprara:
Unfortunately, we have to wrap up this chat, Dess. Do you have any closing points you’d like to touch on?
Dennis Quiñones:
I recently read a quote in one of my favorite books, La Voz de Tu Alma, which translates to, The Voice of Your Soul. The quote captivated me, and I would love to share it: “Never let the things you want make you forget the things you already have.” It is about giving the deserved importance to the process, be clear about where you are going but value the point where you are. Be grateful, and enjoy each stage. It is a beautiful metaphor for life and for illustration. Gratitude is capable of creating magic. Thank you very much for the invitation, it was amazing to look back on memories.
Takeover Tuesday with Lo Harris
Q&A with Lauren (Lo) Harris, an NYC-based Digital Artist who specializes in illustration and motion design.
Q&A with Lo Harris
Read time: 5min
Madison Caprara:
How’re you doing, Lo? Why don’t you give us a little introduction to yourself and your work?
Lo Harris:
I’m Lo Harris, a Brooklyn-based Digital Artist who specializes in illustration and motion design. I’ve created graphics and illustrations for a variety of brands within the intersections of lifestyle, fashion, technology, and social justice. I utilize bright palettes, strong figures, and relational compositions to create work that champions vibrance, confidence, humanity, and joy.
Madison Caprara:
How did you find yourself where you are today?
Lo Harris:
I always drew as a kid, but I created my art account on Instagram at the end of 2019 in an attempt to finally define and explore my artistic style. When I made the account I used my childhood nickname, “Lo,” because I didn’t want my acquaintances to stumble upon my practice while I was still trying to figure my style out. But by the summer of 2020, my work picked up some traction and I began freelancing until I eventually felt comfortable taking the leap! To this day I’m still figuring my style out!
Madison Caprara:
You specialize in both illustration and animation, which do you find yourself gravitating more towards?
Lo Harris:
At the moment I gravitate more towards illustration. My animation background is deeply rooted in graphics for journalism (breaking news, infographics, etc.) While I still love animation, I think my past experience of needing to rush projects to meet daily news deadlines is something I’m still bouncing back from. One of my biggest professional goals is to start rethinking how I’d like to apply animation to my personal work. I’d like to challenge myself with doing more interesting things animation-wise, even if it’s harder or riskier. It’s time to capitalize on the newfound flexibility I have as a freelancer!
Madison Caprara:
Let’s talk a bit about your background in journalism. It’s where you began your career, correct? At what point did you pivot towards the creative industry? Why?
Lo Harris:
I graduated from Northwestern’s Medill School of Journalism in 2018. Throughout my time there, I taught myself After Effects. In those days I was deeply inspired by Vox explainer videos and wanted to learn how they brought complex ideas to life through motion design. While there wasn't much institutional guidance from my school when it came to motion design, I was lucky enough to get internships at publications like The New York Times where I could fill in the blanks and learn from fabulous animators and art directors on the job. It was from that point that I was officially teetering on the intersection of news and creative. I continued to take motion design jobs in the news industry from then on out.
Madison Caprara:
And when did you go from working full time to freelance? Was there anything in particular that prompted you to make that decision?
Lo Harris:
I officially left NBC News in January 2021 to focus on my freelance career. It was a very scary decision, I was 24 and had never quit a job before. To be honest, I probably wouldn’t have even thought to take the leap if my illustration work had not been gaining traction online and in the news. Beyond that, the summer of 2020 and all of the protests definitely had me questioning my presence in the newsroom as a black woman.
I had to start asking myself some serious questions: “Was my voice and experience being respected? Could I be making a difference in a way that didn’t jeopardize my mental health? How did I know that people would still like my work, even after the protests?” I’ve met some amazing people in the newsroom and I will forever celebrate my colleagues who were in the trenches with me tossing keyframes. But the conditions were practically perfect for me to take a big risk and actually invest in myself. I’m so glad I didn’t play it safe.
Madison Caprara:
What’s that quote? “The cost of playing it safe could far exceed the cost of daring to change?” Something like that. Definitely something that is easier said than done, so mad props to you for taking that leap.
Now, let’s take a look at your creative process. When a client initially commissions a project from you, what’s the first thing that you do?
Lo Harris:
Typically in early correspondence, I’ll ask the client for the administrative logistics: A brief of deliverables, licensing details, timeline, dimensions, brand-specific references if applicable, and budget. Clients aren't often forthcoming with their budget expectations, but I like to ask anyway. If this information is given to me through a call, I’ll take notes but still ask them for an email with the details in writing. I also don't start working until a contract is signed. After that, I’ll follow up with sketches, color palettes, and up to two revisions.
Madison Caprara:
Who has been your favorite client or project to date?
Lo Harris:
I had a lot of fun with Bombay Sapphire and the Other Art Fair. It was a very comprehensive collaboration that featured many moving parts including a virtual exhibition. It was also my first time drawing stills and passing them on to another animator, her name is Sam Corey. It was great seeing her interpretation of the style frames I drew because I feel like every animator would intuit a style frame differently.
Madison Caprara:
I love your gif work. You’re pretty much a Giphy rockstar, tell us more about that!
Lo Harris:
An accidental* Giphy rockstar! The team at Giphy Arts is awesome and they are one of my favorite clients because of the variety and freedom their projects afford. My first gifs were commissioned by Giphy for the presidential election. I find that they’re a great platform for dishing out simple, poppy animations and messages.
Madison Caprara:
You seem to be very passionate about fostering artistic opportunities and professional advancement for other artists, that’s amazing! Tell us a bit about that.
Lo Harris:
One thing about me is that I will share! I’m very passionate about speaking and sharing with other artists, especially as it pertains to the business side of things and advocating for your worth.
So many amazing creatives get taken advantage of because they are so focused on the art. It’s important for artists, even if they have agents, to watch their money, read their contracts, watch their practice, and stand up for their own best interest. Even if it means you have to confront an agent, manager, or even a client. I have a YouTube channel and a TikTok (@loharris_art) pretty much dedicated to sharing information and uplifting artists.
Madison Caprara:
Where did that passion originate?
Lo Harris:
I got tired of feeling like I always had to prove myself to people or “pay my dues.” Don’t get me wrong, if you're inexperienced and want to break into an industry, the best thing you can do is approach a job with a can-do attitude and acquaint yourself with even the most mundane parts of the job. But after a while, you have to really take inventory and give yourself permission to have boundaries. Hold yourself, your skills, and your time with esteem.
Earlier in my career, I developed a say-yes-to-everything mentality that sometimes shuttled me into situations that were crazy stories for a dinner party, at best, or utterly dehumanizing and possibly a labor lawsuit, at worst. I feel lucky that I’ve learned how to balance working hard and doing good work with respecting myself and my work. I’m excited to continue empowering other creatives to do the same!
Madison Caprara:
If you could lend one piece of advice to someone just starting out within the creative field, what would it be?
Lo Harris:
Please keep creating, even when you feel like your work looks bad. It’s a part of the process. Just keep going and I promise, it will all make sense!
Madison Caprara:
Where do you find yourself consistently going for inspiration?
Lo Harris:
I used to have pinboards and whatnot. Nowadays, I may be walking around town and see a crazy color or a tree that makes me happy and I’ll draw from that essence. Alternatively, I’m very self-reflective and sensitive. I often like to illustrate inspirational sentiments I’m working through in order to make myself feel better.
Madison Caprara:
Well, unfortunately, we’re reaching the end, Lo. It was really great getting to know more about you. Do you have any closing points, advice, or statements you’d like to share?
Lo Harris:
Be the first to bet on yourself, always!
Q&A with Dash Bash Speaker, Joy Tien
Meryn Hayes:
So I will go ahead and jump into it. I have Joy Tien here with me today. She is a Senior CG Generalist at BUCK who specializes in look development, lighting, and animated commercials. Joy’s style is expressive through playful characters, sophisticated materials, and colorful lighting. She also works closely with the creative technology team at BUCK to help bridge the gap between CG and Tech. She's worked with clients such as Apple, MailChimp, Sherwin-Williams, Nike, and Coca-Cola. Welcome, Joy!
Joy Tien:
Hello. Thank you for having me!
Meryn Hayes:
So that was a little bit of an introduction into who you are, but how about you tell me how you first got into motion design.
Joy Tien:
I initially studied fine art back in Taiwan and wanted to do more computer graphic animation when I graduated from school. There were no jobs as a fine artist unless you had rich parents. So, I felt I needed to apply somewhere within the industry where I could find both money while still doing what I love to do. I talked to my parents and figured out I could give it a shot by coming to the States to study. I went to the School of Visual Arts in New York as a computer arts major for my master’s.
After two years, I was looking around and applying for internships. I tried a few times at BUCK and didn't get in. I didn't know anyone so I gave up and flew to San Francisco where I started my first freelance job for Zoosk, the old dating app that no one uses now. So, that was my first project which actually led me to working at BUCK as an intern after a year. Then I flew back again from San Francisco to New York, it's kind of funny.
Joy Tien:
My biggest regret is that I threw away my mom's rice cooker when I was in New York. I wish I had carried it with me, but anyway, that’s how it started.
Meryn Hayes:
That's great. And I think it is validating for a lot of people listening or reading this that you applied to BUCK many times. Was that discouraging, or were you just really determined? What led you to keep applying over and over again?
Joy Tien:
It was quite difficult. I think of it as fishing. The more times you throw the net, the more opportunities to get a fish.
When I was a student, it was hard being international because I needed a sponsor. It's difficult to get a studio to even say yes in the beginning. I had a Google Sheet. I’d write down all the studios I applied to and then I would write out all the information, for example, what date I applied. Every couple of months I would give them an update, “hey, I finished this commercial or this project and I'm free again to freelance or intern and am open to any opportunities.”
Joy Tien:
At BUCK, they keep everyone's information on a roster. It's like a freelance list of potential talent so when there’s an open opportunity, they contact someone on the list. It's all about timing. You have to be determined to keep applying, but not in a crazy way.
Meryn Hayes:
That's so true and I feel like it's something that can be hard for people, like students who are just getting into the field or people that make the leap to freelance for the first time. They wonder how to find clients and how to get consistent work, but it does come down to the right opportunity at the right time. To your point, being determined and not letting people's silence get to you. You just need to keep applying yourself, and not to the point where you're driving people crazy, but you're showing your commitment to it, which is like a full-time job. I feel like if you're freelancing, you're essentially your own producer. You're trying to make contacts with people and work on projects. Is that something that you struggled with or did it come naturally to you?
Joy Tien:
I managed a few projects at school. We had to make a catalog for classmates going after finance degrees. It was an opportunity for us to show studios or potential sponsors that we were actual artists. I was a little more opinionated and particular, so I thank God people believed in what I wanted to do.
They let me lead the team, and I feel I learned management skills from that project. Also, from my parents, the way they do and manage things. I started living by myself here in the States. Doing that, you really need to stay on top of things. If you needed to get a job, you needed to be on top of your scheduling and find a strategic way to keep your presence within the market. It takes time to learn. And one thing I noticed was the cultural differences. In Asia, I don't think I should speak for other countries, but at least for Taiwan, the culture is more submissive.
Joy Tien:
People don't speak out when it comes to promotions or when it comes to presenting themselves. They are more passive. You’re told to listen to the authorities and leadership, but here you have to speak louder for people to hear you and to show people that, “Hey, I'm also a shooting star and I've been shining. I'm willing to share my glow with you if you want to include me.” So I'm learning how people present themselves here as well and how I fit into that.
Meryn Hayes:
That's interesting. I feel like something that a lot of people, especially coming from different cultures or different countries, trying to assimilate to the way that we do things here can be difficult. You're used to a more passive approach instead of waving your hands like, “look at me, look at my work,” which can be really hard for some people to do. It’s an interesting distinction. Are there other things that you noticed when going to school in Taiwan versus school in New York? Was art school inherently different in either place or were there similarities across both?
Joy Tien:
Yeah, great question. They’re very different, and it's not just the culture. It's very competitive here. I remember at SVA, it's like I was competing with everyone around me to get a job. It’s sad because, in the end, it's the same, small industry. There were a few times when I tried to ask for resources from classmates, but not everyone is willing to share even when you’re working on the same thesis.
I found it hard that people wanted to keep their specific contacts to themselves to get headway into a big studio. It took some time to get used to it, but back in Asia, I noticed that students don't usually ask questions. It depends on the generation, but overall it's quieter. People don't want to show their differences, it wasn’t that competitive. College life, in general, is more chill.
Meryn Hayes:
That's interesting. One thing I was thinking about, I went to school for photography, so similar to art school. It was pretty competitive. The animation and motion design community is, as you said, really small. Something that I've learned in the short time that I've been in it is how willing people are to help each other which is surprising in a really good way. Most art schools are so competitive. You imagine students are all essentially competing with each other, right? Studios and freelancers are all working towards doing the same thing, but there's still this sense of community and engagement with each other that I just don't think I've seen in other industries. It's really special.
Joy Tien:
Pixar has a round table. I think I read this from Creativity, Inc. If I remember correctly, they have a round table where everyone sits and shares ideas for storyboarding. I think that's great. Every industry should do this, good ideas come from everywhere. You're going to bring different cultures and backgrounds into the mix. That's how you make a unique team. You have more people troubleshooting in different ways that you may not have thought of. So, I think it's great that the Dash Bash is willing to do this festival. Sharing knowledge and everyone's passions. It’s awesome.
Meryn Hayes:
One of the reasons why we wanted to put on the Dash Bash was because of the value that dash gained in the early days when we were figuring out how to run a studio. There were so many other studio heads who lent an ear or gave advice to our co-founders, Mack and Cory. Being able to give back to that community is something that we're excited to do.
So, you started at BUCK. You were an intern. What led to you being involved in the creative technology team? Can you talk a little bit about some of the goals? I love the team’s ethos of “bridging the gap between CG and tech, the art and design with the technology.” Can you talk a little more about that?
Joy Tien:
Yeah! Nowadays, not to say anything negative, but my company is predominantly white and male within leadership. Creative tech is something that not many people are willing to explore. It’s very tactical-oriented, not art-oriented. Also, it is pretty low poly a lot of time. Does that make sense?
Sorry if I use nerdy terms. It means that the model’s less polished if you compare it to the high-end gaming like, for example, Rockstar or Blizzard. That's the pinnacle of the gaming industry, but it takes a lot of time for other studios. The cases we get are mostly mobile games and AR, kind of like Pokemon Go. More lower-end because everyone is trying to get on this trend of doing creative tech for AR and VR.
Joy Tien:
People also are used to seeing high-end commercials from BUCK and the specific look that we create. Creative Tech is something BUCK wants to explore, which is why this opportunity came to me. I had to take a leap of faith and try it out. It turned out that I actually quite liked it. A lot of the time, the animation teams here are so big that you’re really just one little school executing ideas for your creative teams and leadership. But when it comes to creative tech, I get to contribute my creativity. The projects we’ve gotten for creative tech have been pretty experimental. It's exciting and scary but ultimately rewarding when it works out.
Meryn Hayes:
Totally. I think you're going to enjoy talking with one of our other speakers, Kaye Vassey. She works at Epic Games and worked on Fortnite when it was just a tiny project. You two may have a lot in common.
One thing that really struck me was how being on this team was almost like going back to your fine art school days. How funny and full circle is it that that's where you started and some of that past mentality is being put to use.
Joy Tien:
I’m lucky to be trusted by my team and leaders. They entrusted me with the task of bridging CG and CT and I'm trying to fulfill that goal, but I also find it quite fun to be the local pioneer playing out things with my team and clients. That's really rewarding.
I'm a big fan of immersive tech. I don't know if you know this Japanese team called TeamLab? They specialize in immersive tech. Everything is projected in a room for you to immerse yourself in. You go into this environment and immediately feel like you are transported to a different dimension. Maybe not that dramatic, but to me, that’s what it feels like. I always wanted to be part of the trend, so I'm happy that BUCK is starting to figure it out with our creative team.
Meryn Hayes:
Oh, that's great. As you were describing it, I was imagining a traveling exhibit we have here. The Immersive Van Gogh Exhibition...that's what this reminds me of. Being inside of the art.
Meryn Hayes:
So, how big is your team?
Joy Tien:
It varies from project to project, to be honest. The New York CG team has a tech project going on right now that has around seven to ten artists.
Meryn Hayes:
What advice would you give to someone who has never heard of this Creative Technology team but is interested in pursuing it? Whether it's research to get into or programs to start. Is there any advice you'd give to someone interested in bridging this gap?
Joy Tien:
It's funny you asked as I’m also trying to figure it out. It depends on their skill set. If I'm an artist for CG, the best way is to go to--I forget the name--coders gather together...Hackathon! Doing things like that. Try to find collaborative opportunities or even style your own projects. Find other artists to collaborate with because it's beneficial for both sides; merging tech minds and creative minds together.
On the other hand, there are some who go at it alone, which is amazing too. So, there’s no set stepping stone or determined way to go about it. It's more of figuring it out, which can be difficult. I will say, we are lucky to have production; the producer, coordinators, etc. The whole team is working on bridging this relationship between clients and big tech companies. We were fortunate to pitch and develop ideas with them.
Meryn Hayes:
And how does it feel like pitching them ideas that have never been done before? There's a certain amount of trust. How do you feel you get your clients to take that leap of faith? Especially in the tech space, it can be really expensive and take a long time, so you're asking a lot of your clients to trust that you're going to deliver something never tried before. How do you handle that?
Joy Tien:
I can’t speak from the producer’s viewpoint, but I feel they do a great job of persuading the clients, or showing enough credentials, that we have the ability to do the project. There are some things worked out as we go. Most of the tech projects--I’ve only done two, so humbly speaking--are a lot of ‘build as you go’.
Meryn Hayes:
I’m sure it helps if you already have a relationship at the time. Having worked together before, setting that groundwork for trust. It can be hard for a lot of clients if they can't see something tangibly to know you’ve delivered, which I totally understand.
Joy Tien:
It’s always good to have a mood board and motion tests. Usually, we’ll use them to show what we can potentially accomplish, almost like a prototype. I’ve noticed that--I don't want backslash from agencies--but they will do free pitches with many different studios and only pick one at the end. A lot of the time, the pitch isn't tailored. It could be a bad cycle because every studio is trying to get that project, so they will lowball.
In the end, artists are the ones that suffer. If lowballed, these creatives are going to be working overtime. I want to bring awareness to the fact that good art takes time. There's no other way to make it look good unless you have other creative solutions, which are hard to pitch to clients. The producer is usually the middle person that helps us sell the idea.
Meryn Hayes:
And that's interesting, thinking that if a studio were to lowball a pitch, everybody suffers. That's something that comes with the territory of knowing your worth, especially as a freelancer. People talking about money and salaries, it can be a taboo subject and hard to talk about. However, I think the more that we say, “Hey, your day rate's kind of low, you can be charging more,” that's just going to elevate the whole industry. It's important that people know their value.
Joy Tien:
It's hard. Panimation, I don't know if you're following this group, but when one of the artists took over, it was amazing. She surveyed everyone on the story that you could respond to. She asked different people and artists from different companies what their day rate was, along with other things. This whole industry is tied to a capitalist system. It’s one reason why animation is more popular, or more developed, within the U.S.; commercialism, Hollywood, that industry is all here. So I think people here have more leeway to ask for more, but in Asia, at least where I come from, there's no way you can compare the two. It's a different environment.
Meryn Hayes:
What advice would you give to someone who's coming to the U.S and maybe doesn't know what to charge or some of the business strategies? The business side of animation and motion is hard enough, even if you're originally from here. You're not taught business in art school, right? So it must be even harder for someone who's not from this country who isn't immersed already in the industry.
Joy Tien:
It depends on the circumstances. If you are an established freelancer in your hometown or country and you can speak English, you only have to talk to people. Go to conferences. Establish connections. Don't be shy, try to reach out to people if you can on LinkedIn, Facebook, or Twitter. People enjoy talking about their salaries. There are channels for that. Join conferences like the Dash Bash and have open conversations with people. See how you can collaborate with someone other than yourself.
Meryn Hayes:
That's great. Now, tell us about the diversity, equity, and inclusion committee at BUCK. How did that come to be?
Joy Tien:
I was part of the committee when the pandemic hit, though I took a break to focus on Creative Tech. It was too much to do both. BUCK has been trying to bring this awareness about how we can bring equality to our industry. I think Asians and white creatives outnumber people of color within our industry. I’ve noticed those are the demographics that BUCK mostly consists of as well. So, we're trying to bring more voices from other HBCU and underprivileged schools. That was why we started this committee, along with the Employment Resource Group to help support LGBTQ+ individuals.
Our team is learning as we go, and we’re trying to bring more transparency from the top down. We have begun to schedule monthly occasions where we invite minority individuals to come to speak at BUCK and share their processes. We invited Peter Ramsey who directed Spider-Verse, and recently we had author, Grace Cho, who wrote a book called Tastes Like War. It focused on how Korean meals and memories of the mother country live on within the States. BUCK is focusing on bringing more outside voices to us and learning more about how we can make it a place where there's equality, transparency, and fairness.
Meryn Hayes:
BUCK is such a leader in the industry. So it’s encouraging and sets both tone and standards to show others how important it is. You all are putting so many resources into it, and the rest of the industry should follow suit. One thing that you mentioned is how dependent the industry is on getting an education. Art school is very expensive and cost-prohibitive. This is especially so for historically black colleges. It’s important to get access to sponsored programs or provide equipment to underserved communities so that art and animation can be available to more people. There needs to be a concentrated effort on early education for animation, otherwise, we're not going to have a diverse group of hires.
Joy Tien:
It's a group effort. Every school has a small hierarchy, a duplication of our actual society continued by those who established it. So, it's difficult. Something I think would be helpful is hiring Paradigm. They’re a company that helps to arrange internal surveys for employees regarding race and thoughts on a company’s inclusivity. You have the data, but it’s not the solution.
Meryn Hayes:
We're stacked against fighting systemic racism over hundreds of years. There's not going to be an easy answer. It involves being vulnerable and admitting that you don't have all the answers, but you're still willing to try and work together, as you said. Commitment to each other is what's going to help get us there.
Joy Tien:
There’s one thing people can do when it comes to hiring people. Acknowledge unconscious bias. Spend a little more energy and look outside of your own circle and comfort zone. Bias training can really help leadership learn more about how and why they make hiring decisions.
Meryn Hayes:
On a similar note, I was watching a panel you did right before the pandemic started for Diversetoons. There was a question someone asked about finding your voice, which is similar to what we were talking about earlier. To get noticed in the industry you have to raise your hand and be loud. For a lot of women or people of color, it's difficult to stand up and be the loudest person in a room. That's something that I struggle with. How do you feel you've been able to find your voice in an environment as large and talented as BUCK’s?
Joy Tien:
I'm still trying to figure that out. I feel I’ve found that now within Creative Tech, but I think women need to be helping other women. I have seen people get unvoiced by the same gender. It's difficult. I don't understand it.
Establishing that first impression is important. When you learn to speak up, people will learn to wait for you to contribute your feedback. I don't want to exclude introverted people, because not everyone is comfortable speaking up. In those cases, if you're a leader, the best thing to do is to open your channel and embrace different voices from different devices. It’s important to create an inclusive environment that everyone feels safe voicing their opinions in.
Meryn Hayes:
I love that. I've talked with people before about something similar; the idea of meeting people where they are. I'm on the introverted extrovert line. I can be both, so my idea of comfortability is way different from somebody who's much more introverted. Doing my part to meet them where they are if they're not super comfortable speaking out is really good advice.
Joy Tien:
Going back to when you were asking about people who want to work with BUCK. I’m not sure if you want to talk about social media, but that's one thing I'm struggling with. I don't know how these talented people get to 10K followers. It's a full-time job.
Meryn Hayes:
That's something that I've heard a lot of people in the industry talk about, especially within freelance work. You are your own producer and your own creative director, but on top of that, being your own social media manager because you're having to market yourself. A lot of people aren’t able to keep up.
Joy Tien:
I have respect for all of the industry’s freelancers. I don't know how they do it.
It’s all about scheduling periodically. I originally had the mindset of only posting final projects, but it’s honestly about frequency. The more you post, the more attention you gain.
Meryn Hayes:
What you said about posting work that's in progress, I think it's good for people's mental health. For people to see in-progress projects from their favorite artists and not just the shiny final project, it allows people to see the process. Everybody makes mistakes. Seeing behind the curtain helps us all acknowledge that we don't have to be perfect on social media all the time.
Joy Tien:
In the end, we’re all human. All trying to spark before we transcend to the universe.
Meryn Hayes:
There’s so much I want to talk about regarding the future of art and technology, your work at BUCK, everything really. As a final question, what is something that you plan on talking about at Dash Bash? Can you give us a sneak peek into your presentation?
Joy Tien:
My working title is ”Hide and Seek with Creativity.” I want to talk about how to reignite and keep the passion for creation as a seasoned artist. Someone who may have been in the industry for a while.
Everyday life is full of inspiration, but you can become jaded with your routine; when you're tired of your responsibilities as a parent, as a partner, as a caretaker, or working professional, how do you take a break and find that passion again?
Meryn Hayes:
That's valuable for a few reasons. Over the last 18 months, people have been feeling the monotony of everyday life. It can be draining. Finding that passion and what makes you tick creatively, that’s really helpful. I also think a lot of people within our industry have the ultimate goal of getting into BUCK, right? It would be reassuring for people to see that even you at BUCK, feel the monotony of the day-to-day. Even though you're at THE dream job, you still have to make the effort to ignite the spark to keep your passions satisfied.
Well, I just wanted to thank you so much for chatting with me. We're really excited to meet you in person!
Joy Tien:
Yeah, thank you so much for having me!
Routes to Raleigh: Dashing from the West
(1) Starting Point: Los Angeles, California
Hollywood Boulevard. Shutterstock, 1 Mar 2016, https://bit.ly/lastockphoto.
To Do: The Broad, a contemporary art museum offering free general admission and an active program of rotating exhibitions.
To Eat: The Little Door, with a consistently rotating menu, The Little Door holds the title for the "Best Romantic Restaurant of LA." A Parisian-style restaurant with seasonal French fare, pastries, and fine wines.
To Drink: Bar Bohemian, a sleek, bright and breezy craft cocktail rooftop bar and lounge at Citizen Public Market.
(2) Albuquerque, New Mexico
To Stay: Painted Lady Bed & Brew, a twist on the traditional B&B concept. Built in 1881 as a brothel and saloon, The Painted Lady is rumored to be haunted, if you’re into that sort of thing.
To Do: Hike La Luz Trail to the top of South Sandia Peak for a beautiful view of the city. If the weather’s good, take the cable car back down to the bottom.
To Eat: Los Poblanos Historic Inn and Organic Farm, technically a hotel, but their restaurant’s food is grown right on the property.
To Drink: Sip on local wines at Casa Rondeña Winery.
(3) Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Oklahoma City Skyline Sunset. Pixels, 13 Apr 2019, https://bit.ly/okstockphoto.
To Stay: Colcord Hotel, housed in a historic building from the 1910s, the Colcord is a boutique hotel smack in the middle of the downtown scene.
To Do: Ride OKC’s Bike + Brews, a three-hour-long bike tour, with stops at five breweries and a few other notable city sites along the way.
To Eat: Grey Sweater, one of OKC's newest and most unique restaurant concepts.
To Drink: Elemental Coffee, a minimalist cafe with espresso and craft coffee drinks. Their beans are roasted in-house!
(4) Nashville, Tennessee
Spirit of Nashville Bus. Shutterstock, 15 Feb 2020, https://bit.ly/nashstockphoto.
To Stay: Kimpton Aertson Hotel, located in Nashville’s Midtown district next to the legendary, Music Row. Pet friendly!
To Do: You can’t go to Music City without hearing some live music. Go see a show at the Grand Ole Opry.
To Eat: Pinewood Social, a trendy restaurant, cozy coffee shop, craft cocktail bar, and a bowling alley. All in one!
To Drink: Yee-Haw Brewing Co., a dual distillery and brewery in Sobro that is a much-loved go-to.
(5) Asheville, North Carolina
To Stay: The Foundry Hotel Asheville, restored and resurrected an abandoned steel foundry.
To Do: Take a hike in the Pisgah National Forest.
To Eat: Jargon, located in historic West Asheville, Jargon is an intimate spot that offers modern American dishes along with craft cocktails.
To Drink: Capella on 9 takes rooftop drinking to the next level. Smack in the middle of downtown Asheville, Capella has a great cocktail program with phenomenal city views.
Welcome to Raleigh, West Coasters!
Takeover Tuesday with Pablo Lozano
Q&A with Pablo Lozano, a former Animator and Designer at Golden Wolf, currently freelancing in Toronto, Canada.
Q&A with Pablo Lozano
Read time: 10min
Madison Caprara:
What’s up, Pablo? Let’s start with an introduction! What did your path to becoming an animator look like, and what about it initially attracted you?
Pablo Lozano:
Hey there! Thank you for having me here. I started my career as a Motion Designer in TV (news broadcasting, sports broadcasting, etc.), but then realized that that side of the motion world was too fast-paced for me; having to create content in days, if not hours, and most of the “cool” projects, like openers or rebrands, ended up being outsourced to outside studios. That's when I decided to change directions towards the studio side of things. I moved to Sweden to study at Hyper Island, improved my skills, and from there, moved to London to join the Golden Wolf team. Now I am freelancing!
In regards to my original attraction to the medium, I've always known I wanted to work in the creative field, but it wasn't until my early 20s that I narrowed it down to 2D animation and motion design. I love bringing still graphics and illustrations to life. I love how we can create new worlds in 30 seconds, and mostly, I love deciding how movement informs the tone, message, and emotion of a piece.
Madison Caprara:
And how would you go about describing your “signature style”?
Pablo Lozano:
I'm not sure I have a signature style, to be honest! I enjoy working in different styles but if I had to narrow it down, I am really drawn to dynamicity and energy. Those are the projects I enjoy working on the most; having fluid motion that ties scenes together, changing rhythms, and high energy.
Madison Caprara:
What type of education did it take to get you where you are today? Formal, self-appointed,..?
Pablo Lozano:
Most of my motion and animation education has been self-taught or through work experience. However, my time at Hyper Island in Stockholm gave me the space, tools, and time to hone my skills surrounded by incredible people.
Madison Caprara:
Speaking of Stockholm, you’ve moved around quite a bit. Sweden, the UK, Canada. How has your experience been in each place, professionally and personally?
Pablo Lozano:
Each is very different, and I think each experience reflects on where I was in my life at the moment. In Sweden as a student, broke but was very interested in learning, spent a lot of time at school working on projects, figuring out exactly what my next move was. London was a time of professional growth, very long working hours, and most everything in life revolved around work. Now in Toronto, I'm trying to find a bit more of a balance between work and life outside of work.
Additionally, each city is very different industry-wise. While London is a huge animation hub, with studios just a block apart from each other and a big network of animators and designers, Stockholm and Toronto have a smaller animation/motion community. Fewer studios and the community is a bit more fractured and difficult to keep in contact with.
Madison Caprara:
Interesting! With all being more well-known cities, I had assumed that they would all have a pretty booming animation/motion scene.
So, you’ve created projects for everything from TV to apps to magazines and have used a pretty large variety of mediums to animate. Do you have a preference?
Pablo Lozano:
Not really! I do specialize in 2D animation, both After Effects and hand-drawn, so that’s my preferred medium paired with Photoshop for design. But regarding the output, I find joy in working for different types of clients, different formats that bring different challenges to the table. Lately, I’ve had a streak of projects where my 2D work has been mixed with 3D content, and that has been very interesting, both in the workflow and style.
Madison Caprara:
Pivoting back to your London days, how did you find yourself joining the Golden Wolf team? How was your experience?
Pablo Lozano:
I joined the team as an intern after my studies and stayed for around three years. My experience there was great! I grew a lot in those years, being surrounded by incredible talent, working with high-end clients and on super interesting projects. There were a lot of long hours and late nights at the time, but I loved the camaraderie and energy there was at the studio. I haven’t found anything quite the same since. I miss the wolves!
Madison Caprara:
Looking back, did you have any particular career goals during your studio days that may (or may not) have changed now that you’ve transitioned to freelance work?
Pablo Lozano:
Just to be a better animator and designer, really. To polish my skills as much as I could. When I got to Golden Wolf, I would see other artists next to me, either full-time or freelance, creating these beautiful animations. I only wanted to get to their level and learn from them. That’s why I would advise anyone trying to get into the industry to gain some studio experience. The knowledge and motivation you get working alongside great talent are invaluable.
Madison Caprara:
And what prompted you to make that switch?
Pablo Lozano:
I wanted a change of pace. To explore how other studios and artists work. Golden Wolf was my first studio experience in the motion industry, so I wanted to see how things worked in other companies. Another reason was the freedom that comes along with freelancing. You can decide the amount of work you want to take on, when to sprint and take on more, and when to slow down to take care of yourself or focus on other things. When you are full-time, somebody else decides that for you.
Madison Caprara:
Having experienced both sides of the coin, do you have a preference between the two?
Pablo Lozano:
I think each has different advantages. I miss incredibly the feeling of being part of a studio; the connection to people, the energy and creativity that flows being in the same space. I don’t think you can recreate that feeling remotely. But on the other side, I am happy freelancing. It allows me to take time off when I need to, to either explore North America (I don’t know how long I’ll be around here) or go back to Spain to see family if needed. At the moment, it better fits my lifestyle.
Madison Caprara:
To speak a little more on your work, is there anything you are particularly trying to address or explore through your pieces?
Pablo Lozano:
Not at the moment, no. Each project is unique and the message is tailored to the client. I have several ideas for personal projects with topics and styles I want to explore, but as always, it’s quite difficult to fit personal work in between client projects while keeping a balanced life outside of the work.
Madison Caprara:
Where do you see the future of animation heading?
Pablo Lozano:
I can only speak on the commercial animation/motion side of things. I see a growing need for animated elements (either 2D, 3D, hand-drawn, or computer-generated) as more and more digital content and platforms need it. On the other hand, I also see a commoditization of much of that content. Faster turnarounds, a longer list of deliveries to fit all possible platforms…a wider pyramid base, and more work across the board but probably as competitive when you move up.
We have seen how animation is doable in a remote environment and during a crazy event such as a pandemic, so in my opinion, that has only increased the number of clients that now feel comfortable creating animated content. It will also be very interesting to see how new mediums we didn’t even think were possible months ago, like the NFT space, will change our industry and the client/artist relationship.
Madison Caprara:
When you find yourself in a creative rut, where do you go for inspiration?
Pablo Lozano:
It’s going to sound cliché, but I try to step away from the computer. Going for walks, people watching…Sometimes inspiration comes from real-world shapes and architecture, sometimes a book or an article, sometimes other artist's work makes me want to try something new...it really varies.
Madison Caprara:
I personally enjoy a good cliché!
Well, it’s been really great getting to learn more about you, Pablo. Unfortunately, we’re reaching the end of our time. That being said, do you have any closing points or advice you’d like to share?
Pablo Lozano:
We need to remember that our career is a marathon, not a sprint. It takes time and effort to get to the skill level you want to be, even if social media these days makes you believe otherwise. Be patient. Work hard, there are times to push, and there are times to rest. Be nice, create genuine connections. And focus on the things you enjoy creating because those are the only ones you’ll be able to pour hours and hours into.
Routes to Raleigh: Dashing from the East
Woah! Another hypothetical road trip itinerary for our East Coast Dash Bash attendees. Find part one here, with part three to follow shortly!
Road Trip Itinerary. NYC to Raleigh, NC.
Read time: 5min
(1) Starting Point: New York, New York
Lower Manhattan - Chinatown. Getty, https://bit.ly/nycstockphoto.
To Do: Sleep No More, an award-winning, interactive theatrical experience. Follow a film-noir portrayal of Macbeth through a five-story 1930s hotel located in the Chelsea neighborhood.
To Eat: Juliana's, a neighborhood pizzeria serving new york-style pies. Pro-tip: if wandering over from Manhatten, take a stroll along the Brooklyn Bridge, as the restaurant is located just under it.
To Drink: Attaboy, a cocktail bar hidden in plain sight on an obscure bit of Eldridge Street. If you enjoy more of an intimate speakeasy vibe, this spot’s for you.
(2) Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
To Stay: Lokal Hotel - Fishtown, a modern apartment-hotel in one of Philly’s hottest neighborhoods. Fishtown is home to some of the city’s most trendy restaurants, bars, shops, and cafes.
To Do: Philadelphia's Magic Gardens, a non-profit organization and gallery space on South Street. It is the largest work created by mosaic artist Isaiah Zagar to date. Covering an indoor and outdoor space equivalent to half a city block, the tiled passages weave over and underground.
To Eat: Reading Terminal Market, a huge indoor marketplace featuring some of Philly’s best local eateries. Comprised of dozens of stalls with a variety of food—homemade ice cream, donuts, cheesesteaks, whoopee pies, you name it.
To Drink: Elixr Coffee, a cafe on a small side street in the heart of Center City. The walls are covered in vibrant murals that change every few months. Elixr is known for its light roast, so if you like it dark, head elsewhere.
(3) Baltimore, Maryland
Baltimore Inner Harbor Skyline. Getty, 3 Dec 2019, https://bit.ly/baltimorestockphoto.
To Stay: The Admiral Fell Inn, a historical inn in Fell’s Point made up of seven historic structures. The buildings’ past lives have included a rooming house for sailors during Fell’s Point’s rough-and-tumble days, a YMCA, and a bottling factory.
To Do: The Edgar Allan Poe House, for all of our spooky story fans. Check out where Poe launched his renowned career. Note that the house is small with tight winding staircases, so is unfortunately not 100% accessible.
To Eat: Woodbury Kitchen, a farm-to-table favorite that's well worth visiting for the restored space alone. Think old factory turned hip, rustic-chic.
To Drink: The Bluebird Cocktail Room, named one of “The South’s Best New Bars,” this literary-themed bar in Hampden features cocktails named after famous authors.
(4) Washington, D.C.
To Stay: Hotel Hive, DC's first micro-hotel. Located across the street from the George Washington University campus, Hive is a converted warehouse turned hotel space.
To Do: The Tidal Basin Loop, an easy 2.1-mile loop surrounded by cherry trees. The loop will take you past many monuments, including the Japanese Pagoda, the Thomas Jefferson Memorial, the Martin Luther King Jr. Memorial, and the Washington Monument.
To Eat: Paying homage to French cafe culture, Le Diplomate is seriously boujee, and worth every penny. We will forever recommend their brunch.
To Drink: Located two blocks from the waterfront, Bluejacket is a microbrewery serving craft beers in a century-old former factory.
(5) Richmond, Virginia
Autumn on Monument. Getty, https://bit.ly/richmondstockphoto.
To Stay: Quirk Hotel Richmond, located in Downtown Richmond’s art and design district, Quirk is a boutique hotel located just two miles from the Virginia Museum of Fine Arts.
To Do: Virginia Museum of Fine Arts, one of the largest comprehensive art museums in the U.S. with more than 5,000 years of art from around the world.
To Eat: Rappahannock, an Industrial seafood spot nestled in the historic Grace St. corridor of downtown Richmond with offerings of an oyster bar, craft cocktails, and beer in airy digs.
To Drink: Charm School Social Club, a dual coffee and ice cream spot. ‘Nuff said.
Welcome to Raleigh, East Coasters!
Interview with Dash Bash Speaker, Kaye Vassey
From films to comic strips to video games, Kaye Vassey has done it all.
Cory Livengood, dash’s Co-Founder and Creative Director, sat down with Kaye to discuss both her professional and personal journey.
Q&A with Kaye Vassey
Read time: 15 min
“it was lightning in a bottle. I knew that it was a great game. I knew that the art was cool and that the style was awesome, it just needed to find the audience. (fortnite)”
Cory Livengood:
I have Kaye Vassey here with me today. She is a twenty-one-year veteran of the feature animation, games, and comics industries, where she has worked on film franchises such as Shrek, Madagascar, and the How to Train Your Dragon series. Currently, she is a Lead Technical Animator at Epic Games and was an artistic leader on the hugely successful game, Fortnite.
Cory Livengood:
I think the best place to start, Kaye, is by just telling us a little about yourself, and how you got into the animation industry.
Kaye Vassey:
Sure.
Cory Livengood:
Eventually leading to Epic Games.
Kaye Vassey:
I decided when I was around 11 or 12 years old that I wanted to either be...Well, I wanted to do three things. I wanted to do animation, and that was based on a trip to Disney World. At the time they were taking retired animators who had worked for the studio, they put them outside of one of the art stores in Main Street, USA as soon as you enter the park. I had stopped at this guy's table, and he drew for me. I found out he was an animator on Lady and the Tramp. I was like, "Oh, my God, wait, you can do art and have it be alive. That's crazy." From that point on, I want to do animation.
But, I also loved video games. I didn't necessarily want to make them at the time, but I loved gaming, computers, and all that sort of nerdy stuff. This was around the same time that I had a Nintendo Entertainment System.
Cory Livengood:
I was going to ask, were you a computer gamer or a console gamer?
Kaye Vassey:
I started on an Atari 2600, it was right in the middle of the Pac-Man craze and I loved arcades. I still have the memories of going as a kid, that was a huge draw. So yeah, 2600, and then got the Nintendo Entertainment System, the NES. That really sealed the deal as far as gaming for me.
I also wanted to do comics, so I had these three interests and I decided then that they were what I wanted to do with my life. I had been drawing for a long time, art was just one of my hobbies. Then, of course, going through public school in South Carolina, it's like every person you face, you tell them, "Oh, I want to be an animator." They're like, "Okay, yeah, that's great but you need a backup plan." I've heard about the backup plan from every adult through college.
Cory Livengood:
What was your backup plan?
Kaye Vassey:
I was going to do graphic design and illustration. I leaned more towards an illustrator than a fine artist. I was in the camp that considered Norman Rockwell an artist as opposed to an illustrator, the commercial art which was frowned upon. So that was my backup plan: graphic design, illustration, motion graphics.
My intro to art was through my grandfather. He was a plumber by trade. He would come home for lunches and draw for me. Once he retired, he and I would just do art a lot of days, especially in the summer when I would stay at their house while I was out of school. We would just do art most days, we’d go in their basement and paint or draw and try to improve. It was a shared hobby that my grandfather and I had, which cemented everything when it came to choosing art as a career.
Kaye Vassey:
So, I made it through high school, having enrolled in AP art and music. Then, college was a bit of a kerfuffle. I had gotten a full scholarship to the School of Visual Arts in New York, but part of that scholarship was to begin at their Savannah Campus in Georgia for two years, then transfer to NYC to learn illustration. I was like, "absolutely!"
I had been accepted to Cal Arts, Ringling, RISD, Chicago, and all the major schools but couldn't afford them, so this was my solution. On Valentine's Day of my senior year, the guidance counselor called to tell me that SCAD had a pending lawsuit and so the Savannah Campus for the School of Visual Arts was closing its doors. They weren't allowed to take any more students. Sorry, thanks for playing.
Cory Livengood:
Oh, wow. Just like that?
Kaye Vassey:
Yeah. If you look it up online you can still find a little bit of the story. The only option I had was the University of Georgia. I went there for graphic design for a year, transferred back to Clemson in South Carolina, then told Clemson, "Listen, you have a small art department, and here's what I want to do: animation." I went through the entire course catalog and built my own degree. They were like, "okay, cool."
Cory Livengood:
That's great.
Kaye Vassey:
Yeah! I did a one-minute, traditionally animated short film as my senior project. Then came Disney, and that's where I got my first job doing motion graphics.
There were other jobs in-between, of course. I did a lot of menu design work for Denny's. Their HQ is in my hometown, so I did some graphic design there, mainly their different donation campaigns. There's always a box at the register to donate money to, I designed those. But ultimately, I ended up at Disney in the back lot doing motion graphics, animation, after effects, and wire removal for the TV shows they were shooting in Florida. Eventually, I figured out that I couldn't actually draw and started learning how to.
Cory Livengood:
Interesting.
“you can't stop learning. you have to always be willing to learn something new to stay in your career.”
Kaye Vassey:
The pond got much bigger and so it was like...
Cory Livengood:
Yeah, that's still happening.
Kaye Vassey:
Well, the internet makes it infinitely big. Right?
But yeah, it was a much bigger pond. Once I finally accomplished that goal, Disney was moving into 3D animation. While I was in college, I had taken computer science classes and weaseled my way into the labs that had animation software. The campus had an SGI computer with Wavefront and Power Animator which I got access to over the summers. It would be like 100 outside and the lab would be at 60 degrees. I would carry winter coats in there and animate in Alias PowerAnimator.
Cory Livengood:
I wanted to ask you about how you started so clearly with this comic art illustration, and now you're in technical animation. You deal with more of the code and the computer software. How did that transition occur?
Kaye Vassey:
Once Disney started moving toward computer animation, I got one traditional film under my belt--the Eight Crazy Nights film. That was with everybody who had been laid off or wasn't able to work at Disney because they were scaling down and trying to teach all the animators how to use Maya at the time. A lot left and went to Chicago for Big Idea Productions to work on the VeggieTales movie. It was their first. I got pulled along, dropped into a technical role, and started writing code and making tools. I was a render Wrangler/Render TD. Basically, in today's film industry, that role would have been an animation lighting TD. We were doing the final frames.
Kaye Vassey:
We made sure that everything was working, and went in to fix anything that wasn't. I ended up doing that for their film, and because of the advancements we made with Maya, it got noticed by Alias who was the company at the time that was making Maya up before it got bought by Autodesk. Through knowing people there, I ended up at DreamWorks. So, at DreamWorks, I started in clothing and finaling which was new in the industry. Now everybody has a clothing department called character effects.
Cory Livengood:
Gotcha. So that's like fabric simulation and things like that?
Kaye Vassey:
Yep. Fabric, hair, any type of skin simulation. For example, Shrek would touch his cheek and you would need it to deform. Animators don't have the controls for that, so we would go in after they did their work and do the in-betweens if you will. While handling that, my technical knowledge got to the point where they asked me to do effects. I ended up working on the first Madagascar film as well as Shrek 3. That was more of the fire, rain, water, smoke, dust, debris, and explosions.
Cory Livengood:
It seems like you found yourself being thrown into a lot of these situations, trial by fire.
Kaye Vassey:
Oh, absolutely, and learning along the way. That’s the thing, you can't stop learning. You have to always be willing to learn something new to stay in your career.
It just so happened that on Madagascar, the animation department was backed up, and we realized that some characters had not been animated in two of the zoo shots. So I animated the characters because the shots had to get done. After, they moved me into crowd and secondary character animation, which is where I eventually became a department head and supervisor for quite a few films.
Kaye Vassey:
I did that for 11 years, then I could tell that the industry was moving to India and Vancouver. Things were slowing down and the filmmaking process was getting a little out of hand. When you make a live-action piece or film, there's such a thing as coverage, right? You get all of your coverage, then what you end up cutting isn’t a big deal. You end up leaving a lot on the "cutting room floor." However, with animation, you have to start in the opposite direction. You pre-plan as much as you possibly can, because of the amount of time it takes to get characters made, animated, rendered, lit, the entire process. It's not as easy as shooting coverage.
Cory Livengood:
Cutting something after all that work is a huge waste.
“there's a lot of education and elevation that has to happen...when you come out. the question is, is that company willing to push for it, are they willing to put the time in to make their space safe for individuals of all groups?”
Kaye Vassey:
Right, and we were getting directors there toward the end that were cutting fully lit sequences that had been rendered. I could see the writing on the wall. Things were out of hand and it was going to get rough.
Cory Livengood:
So did you know at that point that video games were the next pivot, or was that also a surprise to you?
Kaye Vassey:
Well, that's where the backup plan comes in, right? As much as I hated that adult who pushed that idea back in the day, it has saved me quite a bit.
A lot of it plays on the environment that things are happening in. My daughter was born in Silicon Valley, my son as well, but the day that she was born was also the release of the first iPhone. I was literally in the hospital looking down at the Apple store in Burlingame, where they were opening for the first line of customers. I vividly remember being like, "I want to get down there, but…”
Cory Livengood:
You had important things to do.
Kaye Vassey:
Exactly. Things are happening here. So all of a sudden, there were these things called apps, they had an ecosystem, and tech began moving in that direction. Once I figured out you could make games for the iPhone, that's what I started doing at night as a side hobby. I ended up playing Gears of War and noticed that the studio credited was in Raleigh. I went on a deep dive and started figuring out who Epic was. I began connecting with people on LinkedIn back when LinkedIn was young.
Kaye Vassey:
When you got a connection on LinkedIn, it was like, "Whoa, a connection? Who is this person?" Now, you’ll sift through 200 requests a day. So, we ended up trading tours back and forth, they would come out for GDC, and to see DreamWorks, or I would be in LA supervising and they would come for E3. Then when I came home for holidays, I would ride up to Raleigh and check out their studio.
When it was time, I was like, "Hey, I think I'm ready to do this. Let's see if I can move over to Epic because things are looking kind of rough here." It was not an easy task. The games industry is different than film. In film, you have a lot of proprietary software like with Pixar, DreamWorks, Disney. So when you have a hire, you don't necessarily expect them to know your software.
Cory Livengood:
Right. The skills aren't always transferred like that.
Kaye Vassey:
No. Your knowledge is great, but it takes you about six months to learn the proprietary pipeline and figure out how you effectively use the new tools that I had never seen before. Games are different. They’re pretty much off the shelf, except for the engine. Now, of course, we democratized game engines with Unreal.
Cory Livengood:
Oh, yeah. Certainly.
Kaye Vassey:
That's a different story now because the environment has changed.
Cory Livengood:
That's the thing, a lot of people in the current generation realize that Epic is now so synonymous with Fortnite that it's like, “Oh, by the way, half the other games you've ever played are running software on Epic software.” Right?
Kaye Vassey:
And that's the thing. At the time, I had to test four times to get into the games industry. They basically send tests to prove that you're good enough. Epic was still at the level where they were only hiring senior-level artists. I mean, I'm coming from this area where we hire students out of college and train them because we believe in career advancement, and Epic was like, "You better be a badass." I was like, "I don't know how to be a badass, but all right."
Cory Livengood:
“I'll keep trying.”
Kaye Vassey:
I tested four times and finally got in and that was the start of it. As soon as I got into Epic, I went in and I was like, "So when are dailies?" They didn’t know what dailies were, I had to ask who was going to review my work. They were like, "You are. Just put it in the game and if somebody doesn't like it, they'll come to tell you." It was a completely different mentality. Now Epic is a well-oiled machine
Cory Livengood:
Certainly. Certainly.
Kaye Vassey:
So at the time, they put me on this little game called Fortnite with a very small team. I was the only technical animator on the game and took it all the way to fruition to what you see now.
Cory Livengood:
Can you talk a little bit about what it means to be a technical animator? What is the day-to-day that goes behind that title?
Kaye Vassey:
Yeah, and just for clarity, in film it's called rigging. You have a character rigger or a character TD, and that's generally their main job. What that entails is that you think of a 3D character as a puppet, then you as a rigger are articulating that puppet. You’re putting the bones and the controls in so that the animator can give the performance that they want.
In games, it's slightly different. Especially at Epic, and especially on Fortnite, because technically animation goes beyond just doing that. That's one facet of the job, it's also more like the character effects department that I was talking about earlier. We handle simulation, clothing, hair, physics, basically all the cool stuff that brings that extra layer of life to the characters, props, weapons, vehicles, etc. So, animation is much more. It’s a hybrid art technical role that is much more than rigging. Was that a good explanation?
Cory Livengood:
Yeah, that's perfect. So when you started with Fortnite, it sounded more like an afterthought. Now it has become this worldwide phenomenon.
Kaye Vassey:
Yeah, it was a small team that had been going in on various game jams for a while. It was overshadowed by Paragon, which was a larger game with deadlines. We were making the portion of the game that became Save the World. Then at one point after the release of Save the World, there was another team that worked on the PVP side of things. In helping them get the characters ready and troubleshooting for them, we built the bones that became Battle Royale.
Cory Livengood:
When we spoke the other day, you mentioned a moment that was sort of a make or break, could you recount that again? As I recall, there was this moment of, “Hey, if you can stick with this team and make this work, great, if it doesn't work, you're out.” Is that accurate?
Kaye Vassey:
I was the only technical animator on the entire game, so I brought on a junior hire to help. I built the team, to a large degree, before leaving the game. This was my first hire on this project, my first direct report on the game, and they were a junior.
It was up to me to train and make them effective, and if they came in and didn't accomplish things, in the eyes of the company, it wasn’t going to be good for me. It was make or break at that point.
Kaye Vassey:
The thing is, at DreamWorks, I had helped a lot with what we call the FX Challenge. That’s a curriculum and classes for graduating college students to come in and learn how to be VFX artists. They’d take the classes, learn our proprietary pipeline, work on shots and low-level effects, and we wouldn’t let any of them go. We trained them so well. I'm still connected with most of those students who have been at DreamWorks and Pixar and everywhere else for years now. I really believe that it’s an important aspect of hiring, growing your company, and growing artists in the world. Right?
Cory Livengood:
Yeah.
Kaye Vassey:
So that's what I did with this person. They're now leading the technical animation team on Fortnite.
Cory Livengood:
Excellent. Is it a pretty collaborative team environment or more focused on individual assignments?
Kaye Vassey:
Back when I was running the team, it was really collaborative. I can't speak to now very well, especially with working from home through the pandemic.
Kaye Vassey:
But at that time, yeah! The office was set up as a large room with desks. Everybody would talk and look at what everybody else was working on. It became one great collaboration. The way I would run dailies, during the meeting, everybody would be there. Anytime there was a problem, it was always best idea wins. Anybody that had a thought about, “Maybe you should try this...,” put it out there. It was collaborative from the get-go.
Cory Livengood:
Did you ever expect Fortnite to become as successful as it is now?
Kaye Vassey:
I don’t think anyone could predict that. I knew that it was a great game. I knew that the art was cool and that the style was awesome, it just needed to find the audience.
Cory Livengood:
Are you still a gamer? Do you still play?
Kaye Vassey:
I do when I can, but I’m not a huge Fortnite player.
Cory Livengood:
Sure. That's cool, not too shocking.
Kaye Vassey:
It quickly outgrew my skill set. I got some decent victories at the beginning, got some nice skins and everything I worked on, but then pros came along and were building skyscrapers in seconds. The data has changed to a place where I can't get there. But yeah, I do play. Dating back to the Nintendo that I had, my favorite game was Dragon Warrior which was the English release of Dragon Quest from Japan. I ended up getting it free. I think it was free. It was the '80s I can't remember exactly.
“the more feminine I became, the less my voice mattered to a degree.”
Kaye Vassey:
It’s about to get nerdy real quick. I think I got it free with the subscription, and it came with a thick instruction book that detailed weapons and enemies and stuff. Having already been exposed to Dungeons and Dragons, it was like it but without having to get everybody together and keep them organized. It was amazing, I loved it. I am still very much an RPG player. I was a wow player from day zero, I played Final Fantasy 11 with a group from DreamWorks, and have now moved over to Final Fantasy 14.
Cory Livengood:
I would love to touch a little bit on your comic background too.
Kaye Vassey:
Sure.
Cory Livengood:
It's the whole other side of the coin we haven't discussed, but throughout this whole journey you've described, you've also done work with hand-drawn comic strips.
Would you like to speak a little bit about that and your experience with the Legend of Bill and Gnome Syndicate?
Kaye Vassey:
Absolutely. So that started when I was working on How To Train Your Dragon. I might have said before, but Legend of Bill was a comic strip I had found online. As I said, it’s all about the era, and the environment. At this time, people started making webcomics. They hadn’t previously been a thing. XKCD was huge, Penny Arcade, and PvP. They were games fed directly into the most popular webcomics of the time, right?
Kaye Vassey:
I came across Legend of Bill and started following it. I thought it was really funny how they took Conan the Barbarian, and the fantasy realm idea and stood it on its head. So, I did a guest comment for the author, David Reddick. He wrote me back after having checked out my social media and was like, "Oh, my God, you work on How To Train Your Dragon?" He ran the guest strip and asked if I wanted to do another series in the Legend of Bill world. I said yes, because why not? I had a new kid and all the time in the world. A lot of my 20s and 30s were spent not going to bed before 2 or 3 AM, and then being up early the next day. Definitely not what I do now.
I started doing the Gnome Syndicate, which is in the fantasy realm of Legend to Bill. The fairies are like the FBI and the gnomes are more like the CIA. It all started as a joke in Legend of Bill. He would always draw and gnome, it was in the background and a lot of the strips. Anytime something big would happen in the story arc, there would always be this gnome chilling in the background. He kept recurring. It was David's idea to make him a watcher. To put it in modern Marvel terms, it would have been like the TVA. So the gnomes control time and space. They can teleport around and make sure that things don't happen to cause catastrophe in the timeline. This was all well before any of the Marvel MCU stuff. That was the beginning of my comic journey.
Kaye Vassey:
I believe gnome 12 was the original, so I picked up with gnome 13 and started running the storyline. I did it for years. Eventually, David Reddick, who was already working on Garfield at the time, ended up getting syndicated himself with his strips. Now he's an artist on Blondie. So, I took over Legend of Bill for several years and began intertwining the story arcs. It was a great run for a long time. I did a few weekends as an artist in residence at the Schulz Peanuts Museum which was awesome. But I eventually stopped to begin working on a graphic novel for a publisher. It's still in progress due to the pandemic and various other things.
Cory Livengood:
What are some major differences, also similarities, between film, comic, and video games; these three buckets you’ve found yourself in over the years.
Kaye Vassey:
First, it's all storytelling. You're all contributing to the story in some way, shape, or form. That's a big umbrella. It's an experience, whether oratory or interactive. That's the big thing that links them together. Though technique-wise, once you get under the hood, film and comics have a lot more in common to some degree. Anytime I'm drawing a panel, I'm always thinking, “Where's the camera and the space?”
Cory Livengood:
It's almost like a storyboard.
Kaye Vassey:
It is, and that's another thing, I think about it cinematically. I think about it based on contrast, and affinity, which is the principle that underlies what the original artists at Disney were calling ‘straight against curve’ in their character designs. You can have contrast and affinity in anything it works not only in character design but in storytelling and composition. In animation. You can apply it to so many aspects of creativity. So, film and comics are linked together in many ways that make them similar.
Kaye Vassey:
Games can be a bit different because they’re an interactive experience. You're adding a lot of extra tech that you don't necessarily need for comics. If you're going to draw a comic, then it's you, your materials, and the story. That's all you have. And words, whether they're your words, or someone else's.
Kaye Vassey:
Film is similar. It involves other issues, and now with 3D animation, you're talking about rendering, and you're talking about a series of images that are played back at 24 frames a second. Ultimately, as a film studio or a film artist, whatever you have to do to get that particular frame done, is what you have to do. Once that frame of film is done, that's your deliverable. That's it, it's done. With games, that concept is a little bit skewed. Because this is an experience that's going to happen over and over and over and over and over across the world, millions of times. It compounds itself. So the way that you design these things are similar, but with a very different outcome.
Cory Livengood:
I really like that.
Kaye Vassey:
It's interesting when you compare them all. Artistically, if you want to talk about the color temperature in an area, or how this lighting makes you feel you can, those are all similar, and that's from comics to film to games.
Cory Livengood:
Rely on how they are experienced. That's interesting.
As a trans individual, I wonder if you would be willing to talk about transitioning in an industry that's known for being cis-male dominated if that's something you're comfortable discussing?
Kaye Vassey:
Yeah, I'll totally do that. It's very safe to say that me coming out in an industry that is very, I would even say, cis-hetero-white male-dominated, was tough. It was tough for me and it was tough for Epic in a lot of ways. Let's talk about the LGBT+ community for just a second. The one thing about the trans community, and I've said this before in various places, is that if you are a gay male in games, I don't want to diminish anything, but it is easier for you to exist and "fly under the radar" of your peers. There is still a lot of stress involved if you have a partner. There's a great infographic, and I might mess up the name, but I believe it's Ned and Ted's Big Adventure.
Kaye Vassey:
It's a little infographic that shows a male couple who had a wonderful anniversary weekend. Monday morning, a co-worker comes up to one of the members of the couple and says, "Hey, what did you do this weekend?" That starts this chain infographic of asking, “Is this person safe to talk to? Do they agree with me? Do they know I'm out? Do they not know I'm out? If no, then what consequences does that bring by saying, ‘my partner or my husband’? Does that mean that they are going to treat me differently?” This infographic shows the stressful thought process that happens. The person gets back to their desk and has already gone through so much mental work just from getting their morning cup of coffee in the office. Hopefully, it makes company owners question, “Do I see the amount of stress that this person is starting their workday with and they haven't even gotten to the stress that you pay them for?”
Cory Livengood:
Sure.
Kaye Vassey:
Is that something you want to be okay with? And that's the point of the infographic. It's great, those examples are phenomenal. Now, from the trans perspective, let's take that idea. Let's take someone who, a month ago, came in presenting male. Now that person is standing in front of you in a dress and heels. The extra layer of all of that puts a lot of pressure on both sides. Not only that, you are going to be working with hormones, you're going to be diminishing what your body makes and potentially replacing them completely.
It’s one hell of a roller coaster, and so during that roller coaster, if I was advising a company, I would say if you have someone who's beginning their transition and they are coming out, be prepared for a lot of that. Give them soft landings. When I did it, I was the head of technical animation on Fortnite. It was currently the largest video game in the world. Ever. And I was the leader of the group that last touches assets before they go into the game.
Cory Livengood:
No pressure.
Kaye Vassey:
Also, while walking into the office presenting feminine. A lot of people who wanted to be nice in the world would say, "Oh, I support you, dude." It's like, you just didn't support me by saying that. There's a lot of education and elevation that has to happen within your co-workers and everyone around you at a company when you come out. The question is, is that company willing to push for it, and are they willing to put the time in to make sure that their space is safe for individuals of all groups? Epic is learning that, and they're doing a great job.
Cory Livengood:
That's a good segue. I understand that you're also leading inclusivity initiatives at Epic. Are they related to that exact topic?
Kaye Vassey:
I am. So now Epic has grown and matured as a company. They now have ERGs, which are employee resource groups. It is becoming a place that will hopefully show the rest of the gaming industry how to do it right and how to do it best.
Cory Livengood:
Excellent. It's great that they're willing to do that. I think wanting to improve on those initiatives is half the battle.
If you don't want to do it, then you're a lost cause. Even if you make mistakes along the way, wanting to move in that direction is a positive, right?
Kaye Vassey:
Yeah, you have to have a very forgiving nature to be okay. I believe they can be the best and I believe that they can show the industry how to do what this industry seems to have a problem doing. I believe that Epic can do it better.
Cory Livengood:
That's excellent. Have you found other co-workers feel comfortable confiding in you since you've come out? Has that been a good experience?
Kaye Vassey:
Initially, I was very alone. The more feminine I became, the less my voice mattered to a degree. I felt like I was out there by myself. There were other gay folks, but they kept a very low profile. They never really rocked the boat. They were doing what they had to do to, to work and thrive.
“I think all artists have imposter syndrome…one scroll through Twitter shows me these artists that are much younger than me, and they’re more amazing than I'll ever be. it's learning to cope with that.”
Kaye Vassey:
Again, when you're trans, not to diminish anybody's story, but when you're male to female, the contrast in appearance is what our society is so caught up in. Everybody is constantly gauging you based on your appearance. You're going right to that thing that society loves so much to critique, and you're flipping it on its head. You're going to begin a very, very slow process to achieve what society says is okay for your new “chosen gender." Which to be clear, gender is NOT a choice, but that's the belief thrown at you, right?
Cory Livengood:
Yeah.
Kaye Vassey:
So, walking around Epic like that, I would have people write me and come out to me. They would be like, "Please don't out me." Of course, I would never, never, ever, ever, ever do that, but they would write me and give me supporting words like, “Seeing you at work is giving me hope,” and all those sorts of things. So, I just kept doing what I was doing, which was shouldering all these people's compliments. I felt like I was caring a lot for a lot of people. Once the ERGs opened up, cautiously people started coming out and joining up. Now we’re in the hundreds!
Cory Livengood:
That's awesome.
Kaye Vassey:
Now, it's more about doing bigger things than just making people feel safe. Though that is still such an important aspect in all this. It's much easier now.
Cory Livengood:
It's cool to see how it's grown. Yeah, that's amazing.
Well, we're getting near the end of our time. Two last thoughts, one would just be if you wanted to speak a little bit about what you might be talking about with us at the Bash. If there's any insight you wanted to give towards that, or if there's anything that I didn't ask or some other tidbit that you'd like to drop into this conversation, I'd love to hear it!
Kaye Vassey:
Sure. At the bash, I would love to talk about my career path, how crazy it's been, and highlight some of the little moments that people don't expect; when they're in their careers, and they're feeling trapped, or feel like they’ve made a bad decision along the way. Basically talking about that backup plan, and how that terrible advice turned into okay advice, which turned into good advice, as I got older.
Along with the idea of everyone who's coming out now, how society is changing, and how people like me are going to be existing in spaces in this industry. Animation, art, we've been here the whole time. It's just now that a lot of people are going to have to face us and hear our voices.
Cory Livengood:
Oh, that's great. There’s another question I didn't ask. I wondered if you had any advice for someone who's trying to break into either the film or game industry?
Kaye Vassey:
Totally. That's almost a separate talk unto itself, right?
It's the size of the pond which I sort of touched on and will touch on in my talk. Now, with technology, that pond is the size of the world. It’s not your hometown versus your metropolitan area anymore. I think all artists have imposter syndrome. I won't say every, I'm not going to generalize, but most of the artists I know, when they look at their work, they think it's terrible. Even though it's artwork that has been at the professional level, you still see all your mistakes. You see all the places where you need to work, and the internet can make that even worse. One scroll through Twitter shows me these artists that are so much younger than me, and they’re more amazing than I'll ever be. It's learning to cope with that.
Kaye Vassey:
When it comes to education, in the past, I used to be so big on recommending art schools. But because of that bigger pond and the internet, connections are now available to professionals. You don't have to go to art school to get them, and there are so many online opportunities and professionals who have retired from the industry who are teaching online in their own way. If you have the drive and the passion, then you don't have to go into hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt to make it happen. Not today.
Kaye Vassey:
Now we're in the generation whose online teachers are the people who made Little Mermaid and Lion King, and the '90s Disney films. The students of that first generation. The animation industry is not old. Computer animation is even younger. Video games are young too. We’re finally at this place where we know what one generation of retirement looks like.
If you want to talk about it from a career standpoint, if you're going to be an engineer for a major company, you know what your retirement looks like. If you're going to be a police officer, you know what your retirement looks like. If you're going to be an animator, you could have no idea what your retirement looks like. Because there's not enough of us retired yet, and the ones that are, are the ones that made the best 2D animated films that we grew up with. Now, what they're doing is teaching online for small prices compared to giant art schools.
Cory Livengood:
So true. I often think about how young motion graphics is, but I had not put it in the framework of retirement in that way. It's an interesting way to look at it. After the career what do you do at that point? Who knows, right?
Kaye Vassey:
And right now they're teaching. I can name a bunch. Aaron Blaise, there's CAT Animation, iAnimate, Animation Mentor. I worked with a man named Tim Hodge at Big Idea, he's a wonderful director and was Head of Story on Mulan, he just did a storyboard class. He still does freelance storyboard work for films and he did a class for Aaron Blaise's website. I think it was on sale for $30. It was literally hours of video lecturing with examples for...
Cory Livengood:
$30.
Kaye Vassey:
For 30 bucks. Knowing what I know now as an old person in my mid-40s, if I really had that passion for storyboarding, it was in my heart, why would I consider paying an art school 40 grand to learn those things when I can get a one-on-one lesson with the Head of Story from Mulan for $30? It doesn't make economic sense, right?
Cory Livengood:
It doesn't. As someone who hires people from time to time, the first thing we look at is work. It's not what school you went to.
We’ll look at that, it's always interesting, and that's part of the equation perhaps, but it's really about the portfolio. It's the work. It's not, “Did you go to school?” I don't care. Is it a community college? I don't care. Is it art school? I don't care.
Kaye Vassey:
I mean, I do believe that advanced education can be important when it comes to communication and other aspects of business.
Cory Livengood:
Oh, absolutely, or even networking. There are a lot of reasons why I agree with that statement, but when it comes to the actual work, the skill set, and the passion for it, it's not as important as it used to be.
Kaye Vassey:
If I had it to do over again, the important things that I got from going to art school were deadline and accountability skills. You don't get those when you're just a passionate artist working on your own.
They’re important, but if I had to do it again, I would skew my classes more toward 1.) Computer Science, because that's just a good skill to have now, and 2.), Business. I would ultimately skew more toward business, and do my art every other waking minute; getting feedback from people online, doing the courses at various online animation schools. Because honestly, when I came out of college, I didn't even know how to pay taxes.
Kaye Vassey:
Ultimately, all of us as artists just end up working for someone else helping them accomplish their goals, as opposed to, if you have stories in you, you need a way to get them out. You need a way to make them come to life, and the only way you do that is to work for yourself.
“it's not for the old. it's for the hungry. you need that fire. (animation)”
Cory Livengood:
It's funny if you'd asked me, six, seven years ago if I'd be a business owner, I would have laughed because I was an animator. I was perfectly happy doing that. It’s been quite the journey to learn how to run a business. To create a team. To make people feel like their careers are advancing the way they want them to like they're able to push their skills forward. Also just the nitty-gritty things about taxes, organization, and HR; all that stuff that I wouldn't have known. A little bit of trial by fire on that end but it has been a really exciting journey.
Having worked for people as an animator who didn't know anything about animation or design, it's nice having that foundation when you're talking to clients or you're staff about what is possible, what isn’t possible, what deadlines look like. I have a little more insight than some of my previous employers because I've been in the trenches as it were.
Kaye Vassey:
It's all about self-motivation. The self-motivated artists are the ones who end up succeeding in the studios anyway.
The ones that aren't are going to wash out. Because when it gets tough when you're in your first animation job and you're learning new software, it's not for the old. It's for the hungry. You need that fire.
Cory Livengood:
All right, excellent. Well, really appreciate this conversation. This has been a blast and I'm sure you'll end up repeating yourself, yet again, when we get to the actual event, but great.
Kaye Vassey:
Absolutely.
Cory Livengood:
Great. Good to see you, Kaye.
Kaye Vassey:
Yeah, have a good day. Bye.
Takeover Tuesday with Ayelet Raziel
Q&A with Ayelet Raziel, a Graphic Artist from Israel. She studied graphic design at H.I.T and spent a decade in the design industry including print, branding, and UX.
Q&A with Ayelet Raziel
Read time: 10min
Madison Caprara:
Hey, Ayelet! Could you give us a little intro to yourself and your work? Some background if you will?
Ayelet Raziel:
Hey Madison! Yes definitely. I’m a Visual Creator, Graphic Designer, and Artist. I like to play with shapes and colors to express moments of joy, love, and wonder. Some just for fun and art’s sake, and others in collaborations with like-minded people and organizations. I studied graphic design and worked in various industries including press, branding, and UX. After that, I shifted my focus mainly to independent artistic explorations, and nowadays I am a freelancer, combining the best of all worlds!
Madison Caprara:
What led to you initially choosing graphic design as your career path?
Ayelet Raziel:
I was always a very visual person and liked to draw since I was little. My visual perception tends to be rather graphic and abstract oriented, so I was naturally drawn to this field. Since I’m also very musical, my dream was to design for the music industry (album covers and concert posters) and to express music visually.
Madison Caprara:
And once you chose to go down the path of being a professional creative, how did you go about developing the style that we see today?
Ayelet Raziel:
Interesting question! I was working for a UX company, mainly making standard-looking banners and buttons, until I recognized the internal call to quit my job and focus on drawing. In the beginning, I had no style of my own. I started drawing over photo references and slowly gained the confidence to try new things and make bolder artistic choices.
I meditate a lot, I’ve been doing that regularly for about 10 years. Through meditation and other psychedelic experiences, I was able to reach deeper within myself or outside myself, if you will, to see clearer visions and find new realms of imagination. I constantly try to follow this inner vision and let my heart lead me to whatever feels exciting.
Madison Caprara:
That’s so interesting! I always had this preconceived notion that style was something innate, but it makes more sense to have to work at it.
Now, do you use more manual techniques, or do you prefer digital?
Ayelet Raziel:
I like to explore various techniques and switch between them. Each has a different benefit. So it depends on what vibe I want to achieve in the particular project. I feel the digital tools (for me, drawing on an iPad) allow for more freedom. You can add, subtract, and undo countless times. The process can unfold in surprising ways.
On the other hand, manual techniques, such as ink or markers, allow for a spontaneous one-of-a-kind moment with the sensitivity and detail that digital tools lack. If I can, I try to combine the two or start out one way and continue with the other. For example, I designed the cover art for “Found” by TAMACO. The music is a mixture of tribal and electronic elements. I used a mixed media of ink drawings, acrylic sponge painting, and photoshop gradients to convey that atmosphere.
Madison Caprara:
So beautiful! We’ll have to be sure to include a still for readers to see.
Are you still based in Israel? What’s the creative industry like there?
Ayelet Raziel:
Yes, I am probably here to stay! I would say that, just like everything in Israel, the creative industry is very dense and diverse. There is some of everything, including a lot of room for boldness and self-expression. We are a warm-tempered nation, both in climate and in creation.
Madison Caprara:
Has it been difficult to establish yourself? Do you feel you have had to compete?
Ayelet Raziel:
In financial terms, I luckily had savings and my lifestyle was minimalistic enough to allow me to really make the time for my creative process without stressing about money. Personally, the hardest part about establishing myself has been the internal/psychological aspect, in other words, finding my own creative voice and gaining the confidence to use it. I believe that once you start finding your own unique style, you don’t really have to compete. You just do your thing and if it’s right for a specific project it will naturally fit. There are different projects for different creatives.
Madison Caprara:
And what was your first design job? Or maybe even a piece you can think of that was your first personal success? Something you remember being proud of completing?
Ayelet Raziel:
Wow! It’s hard to say because I tend to make up my own projects. Even as a 10-year old, I created a pop magazine from paper scraps and doodles, made some copies in my dad’s office, and gave it to friends! But my first real design job right after school was at The Marker, one of Israel's biggest financial newspapers. I started at the news desk of the printed newspaper and slowly worked my way up to more interesting projects like magazines and special editions, including cover illustrations for those, which was pretty exciting.
Maybe not the first I was proud of, but one of the first that I felt was really my own creation, was another self-initiated project for a funky 80s party I hosted with some friends. We called it Space Salon. I created both the digital art and the physical art installation at the event. It was a success. People loved it.
Madison Caprara:
Do you have a favorite, or least favorite, type of project? It seems like you dedicate a lot of time to your personal works!
Ayelet Raziel:
My favorite projects are the ones where I can collaborate with others on something cool. For example, our party, or a concert, even an event. I enjoy watching the work come to life with others all while serving the ultimate goal of fulfilling a fun, creative purpose. My least favorite projects? Well, I guess that would be those with a stressful deadline or when the client has a lot of last-minute comments and changes, but I usually end up learning and growing from those as well.
Madison Caprara:
We spoke a little on it earlier, but how important do you feel it is to create your own style as a designer? How do you balance this against the client’s or project’s needs?
Ayelet Raziel:
Maintaining my individual style is very important to me. There’s always a way to uphold it while still meeting the client’s needs. There are endless ways to approach a challenge, so as long as you are flexible, you will find a creative solution that works for both sides.
Madison Caprara:
What has surprised you most about the design industry?
Ayelet Raziel:
Since I’ve been a freelancer, I’ve found my own niche. I now feel less a part of some big industry and more like a person just doing my thing. You can say that’s something that still surprises me. Everyone can find their place eventually without needing to push, even if it takes a little while.
Madison Caprara:
And are there any ethical issues you believe this industry needs to work on?
Ayelet Raziel:
When I was working full-time for other employers, mainly within the print and branding industries, there was often a feeling that junior designers are expected to give a lot of time and energy, and aren’t always properly rewarded for that. I hope things improve in that sense.
Madison Caprara:
Where do you go for inspiration?
Ayelet Raziel:
A lot of my ideas and inspirations come from meditating. Sometimes I can sit to meditate and suddenly have a vision or flash of colors. Music can also very much bring me to that place within because I often experience sound visually in shapes and colors. But really, inspiration can come from anywhere; I try to keep my heart and mind open and seek wonder in everything I do.
Madison Caprara:
Well, it was great getting to know more about you and your work, Ayelet. Before we wrap up, do you have any closing points that you would like to end on?
Ayelet Raziel:
Stay true to yourself. Do what excites you; you’re the one who does it best and that’s what the world needs.
Routes to Raleigh: Dashing from the North
Let’s say that, hypothetically, one or more of you fine folks would choose to road trip to our beautiful city for the Bash. Boy, do we have a (hypothetical) itinerary for you! Parts two and three to follow shortly.
Road Trip Itinerary. Vancouver, BC to Raleigh, NC.
Read time: 5min
(1) Starting Point: Vancouver, BC
Vancouver Financial District. Getty, https://bit.ly/vancouverstockphoto.
To Do: Stanley Park, an absolutely massive 1,000-acre urban park in Vancouver’s backyard. Head over in the morning and spend a few hours exploring the zoo, beaches, and aquarium.
To Eat: Kissa Tanto, tucked away in the upper story of a faded building in Chinatown you’ll find one of the city’s hottest supper clubs. Kissa Tanto fuses the flavors of Japan with the warmth of Italian cooking.
To Drink: The Diamond, a cocktail lounge in the heart of Gastown with an old soul. The Diamond is a cool, laid-back place to meet a friend for a cocktail and apps. Additional fun fact, it was given number 17 in a roundup of the top 50 bars in Canada.
(2) Seattle, Washington
To Stay: Ace Hotel Seattle, a boutique hotel set in former maritime workers' lodging. This trendy hotel in the Belltown district is a nine-minute walk from both Pike Place Market and Olympic Sculpture Park.
To Do: Pike Place Market, home to more than 200 artisans selling everything from homemade baked goods to hand-thrown ceramics.
To Eat: Pestle Rock, Serving up Thai cuisine in the heart of Ballard, Pestle Rock is a culinary gem. Most are used to the taste of Bangkok-style Thai food, think Pad Thai, but don’t come here looking for that. Pestle Rock specializes in Thai food from Isan, known for its pungent, spicy dishes.
To Drink: La Marzocco Cafe, a chic coffee shop slinging beans from around the world and bites from The London Plane.
(3) Minneapolis, Minnesota
Minneapolis Skyline at Dusk. Getty, https://bit.ly/minnstockphoto.
To Stay: Alma Hotel, a 15-minute walk from the central downtown area, Alma is a beautiful, boho-styled boutique hotel. Bonus: the hotel’s restaurant sources its produce seasonally from local organic growers and makers.
To Do: Minneapolis Institute of Art, home to more than 90,000 art pieces, MIA is one of the largest art museums in the U.S.
To Eat: Named after two grandmothers, Sooki and Mimi is James Beard Award-Winning chef, Ann Kim's, newest restaurant located in the uptown neighborhood of Minneapolis.
To Drink: Meteor, in their own words, “An old ass bar with good ass drinks.” Enough said.
(4) Madison, Wisconsin
Madison, Wisconsin. iStock, https://bit.ly/madisonstockphoto.
To Stay: Graduate Madison, located just a block from the university’s campus, Graduate is set alongside Lake Mendota on historic Langdon Street, and just around the corner from Memorial Union Terrace.
To Do: Captial Farmers Market, if you happen to be there on a Saturday morning—on the drive back, perhaps—check out the Danes County Farmers Market around the capital building. There is a large variety of vendors; you can even eat breakfast combining the carts. Enjoy a picnic of your goodies on the capital grass!
To Eat: The Old Fashioned, paying tribute to all things Wisconsin. From cheese curds to 50 local beers on tap, they have it all.
To Drink: Showcasing new and innovative spirits from microdistilleries around the Midwest, The Robin Room is a cozy cocktail hangout in a retro space.
(5) Charleston, South Carolina
To Stay: Hotel Emeline, a trendy boutique hotel located in a restored estate from 1852. The hotel is a minute’s walk from the Charleston City Market and a mile from The Battery defensive seawall. Bonus, doggos welcome!
To Do: The Battery, a pedestrian-only walkway and park along Charleston’s waterfront. You’ll find Charleston’s famous Pineapple Fountain here. Pineapples are a symbol of welcoming in the south, and this fountain is one of the most visited sites in the city.
To Eat: Leon’s Oyster Shop, a relaxed seafood joint serving oysters, southern-style meals, and fried chicken in a cool space with a patio.
To Drink: Félix, a Parisian-inspired cocktail bar and small plates restaurant in the heart of Charleston.
Welcome to Raleigh, Northerners!
The Start of STATE, with Dash Bash speaker, Marcel Ziul
Meryn Hayes had a chat with Marcel Ziul, Creative Director and Founder of STATE.
Growing up in the suburbs of Sao Paulo, Ziul moved to the U.S. in 2007 after working with some of the top studios in Brazil. Read on to learn more about his journey and how STATE came to be.
Q&A with Marcel Ziul
Read time: 10 min
Meryn Hayes:
Today I’m speaking with Marcel Ziul from STATE design, welcome.
Marcel Ziul:
Thanks for having me.
Meryn Hayes:
Marcel is a Creative Director and founder of STATE. Growing up in the suburbs of Sao Paulo, he moved to the U.S. in 2007. As a freelancer, he has contributed his talents to Prologue Films, Stardust, Zoic Studios, Troika, Shilo, Apple, MAL/TBWA, and Bigstar, where he served as an Art Director and Lead Animator on the Bio Channel rebrand.
Marcel’s amazing work is highlighted by several awards and nominations.
Meryn Hayes:
We're so excited. The Bash is getting close. I feel like we've been planning it for so long and now it's actually happening. The more we talk to our speakers, the more excited I'm getting, and the less stressed I'm feeling about the logistics.
Marcel Ziul:
I know. It's exciting. I was thinking the other day, the conference is happening in September, but September is already here. Now I need to take a look at my keynotes.
Meryn Hayes:
It's time to start prepping.
Marcel Ziul:
Exactly.
Meryn Hayes:
Awesome. Do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got into the industry?
Marcel Ziul:
Yeah. I joined the industry totally out of the blue. I was going to med school, actually, and realized that it wasn't for me. My dad saw me through that process. He owned clubs back in Brazil and I used to do all the flyers for them. He was like, “dude, you love designing, why don't you talk to a friend of mine who has a studio? Maybe he can get you an internship?" I went there, talked to the guy, and started as their PA. I was doing things for shoots, organizing cables, all of that.
I would stay at the studio from 6 AM until I finished my shift at 6 PM. Even then, I’d stay longer to go to the post-production room to ask the guys questions. I was doing tutorials at that time. One day the main 3D guy was on vacation and they had to animate a logo. My boss needed to find a freelancer and asked if anyone knew someone that could tackle it. I said, "I can do it, I've been doing tutorials. I can do this thing." It came out good. From there, I was promoted to the post-production side.
Marcel Ziul:
This was all in my hometown. My town is medium-sized. It has almost a million people and is close to Sao Paulo, but the industry is super small. It's not big, so I wanted to go somewhere else. I moved to Sao Paulo and started working with bigger shops, doing my thing. After that, I went to Rio to work in this big production house. Then I moved to LA. Here I am.
Meryn Hayes:
That's awesome. It's so interesting, I've talked with a few people throughout the industry about this. Sometimes when people are getting started in their careers, they realize something's just not working. For example, you tried med school…It’s easy to think of these times as points where we're failing ourselves.
I started out doing photography and realized halfway through college that I didn’t want to move to New York to be a photographer. I was really hard on myself but realized through those curves of my career path that finding out what you don't want to do is as important as finding out what you do want to do. You find your way to where you're supposed to be through those challenges and moments where you're identifying, “Is this what I want for myself?”
Meryn Hayes:
Med school is a really big deal and hard to get into. Was that a tough decision for you? It sounds like you had a lot of support from your family, which I'm sure helped.
Marcel Ziul:
Well, it wasn't a hard decision for me. You're right about knowing what you don't like to do. It's important. I usually say this to clients when I present something for them, let's say, mood boards. I say, if you don't know what you like, just tell me what you don't like.
Meryn Hayes:
Totally.
Marcel Ziul:
But in regards to transitioning from med school to this industry, I don't think it was a hard decision. It was a moment of clarity. When I think back, my dad had such a vision, that he too realized, "Dude, you don't like this. Why are you going to continue?" It's also hard to be 100% sure of what you're going to do when you're younger. We all carry that pressure and feel that we need to know.
“STATE, meaning the state of mind, or ‘this is your state.’ this is a place where you can come and be yourself…”
No, sometimes you need to make decisions and that's the beauty of this thing, you can just re-correct. When I started working at the studio, I could tell it was right because I was putting in so many hours after work. Let's say I would work in the studio from 9 AM to 6 PM and then at 6 PM, I would go to the post-production division and stay there with the guys. I was putting in all the hours. It was a passion. To me, it was an easy decision.
Meryn Hayes:
That's so interesting. Then what? You moved to LA. What year was that?
Marcel Ziul:
I moved to LA in 2007--I'm going to talk about this in my keynote. The funny thing is that in Brazil, things are so different. There is a lack of planning, not that the U.S. has the best planning efforts, but we plan stuff better here in the States than in Brazil. I got tired of that. I got tired of the disorganization, working crazy hours, and having no weekends for six months. It was time for me to go and do other things. I was in between the U.S. and Australia.
Marcel Ziul:
I had a studio in Sydney that wanted to hire me, but I was really into the studios here in the U.S. I came to LA and met with a studio called Belief. It's old. I don't think people are going to remember it, but Belief was like BUCK back in the day; the go-to studio. Everyone wanted to work there.
I talked to Belief and they wanted to hire me. It was so awesome. I went back to Brazil and said, "Well, I'm moving to the States. Bye." They did all of my paperwork because it's such a big deal. One thing that people here in the U.S. don't realize is that when you hire someone from a different country, it is a big deal for a foreigner. You have no clue. I remember going to my farewell party with all of my friends and family there. Everyone was crying. It's not an easy thing to do. It's not like moving from New York to LA.
Marcel Ziul:
For us, it's a huge deal. I would never have expected that I would be here for this much time, but I love it. I would stay longer for sure.
Meryn Hayes:
So you were working in LA, what led to the start of STATE? How did that happen?
Marcel Ziul:
That's an interesting question. It was mid-2013, until that point, I was a freelancer. I was also doing projects on the side with a friend of mine, Marcos, who's an amazing Art Director and Creative Director--he's awesome, we're still friends. We were doing projects on the side where we would get the overflow work from studios and do it ourselves. We had a space and it was like we were in this limbo mode: do a project, go back to freelancing with studios, do another project, more freelancing. I got tired of it. This whole movement. We weren’t a studio and we weren’t freelancing a hundred percent.
I felt the necessity to create something I could put all of my time into. I talked to a friend of mine about building a studio. He wasn't ready for that. He wanted to be a director. So, I decided to move to New York. I was tired of LA; Hollywood, the flashy people. I wanted to go somewhere else, but then something crazy happened. I was doing my green card at the time and I needed letters of support to show to immigration so that I could stay in the U.S. as a resident.
Marcel Ziul:
I called the NFL and asked, "Hey, you guys tried to hire me in the past. Could you write me a letter stating that?" The guy never got back to me. Two weeks go by, I'm like, "Oh snap." I sent another email. Finally, he responded and asked if I could come by the next day. I showed up and he started talking to me about a project I had no idea about. I asked why he was talking to me about a project when I had come for a letter. I didn’t get it. He was like, "Letter, what letter? Dude, I thought you were here for work.” He ended up giving me the letter and telling me he’d call in a month.
Marcel Ziul:
A month later, he called me with a project. By then I had realized that I did not want to work with a friend of mine. I wanted to build something. My wife came to me and said, "Hey, I can be the producer on the project. Then we can hire other people. What do you think?" I agreed and we took on the first project. We did another one and another after that. We did maybe three to four projects with the NFL when one day, Carlos came to me with an offer.
Carlos was a client of the NFL. He's an amazing friend. I love that guy so much. He came to me with “the biggest project of the season.” No pitch needed, he wanted to give it to me. The only kicker was that I couldn’t work from home. I needed to have a space because he needed to be able to take his boss to an official office. With bigger projects, you need more stuff.
Meryn Hayes:
Show me you're legitimate.
Marcel Ziul:
He gave me two weeks to pull that together. One of the producers on the NFL side was a friend of mine--Joe Nash. He's now an Executive Producer at BUCK, but back then he was leaving the NFL. Carlos suggested Joe and I get together to do the project. Joe came to work as the producer and then we got a space together.
It felt right. We loved working together. We loved each other. We asked ourselves, “Why don't we become partners and build a studio?” Then, STATE was born. It happened out of the blue. It wasn't something planned or structured.
Meryn Hayes:
It's funny. There are a lot of ways to start a studio, but that's similar to what happened with Mack and Cory. They were working at an agency--that's where I met them--they got a project that they were going to take on freelance, and they decided they were going to leave the agency to do it. Then, they started working together and ‘Mack and Cory’ turned into dash. How long were y'all working together on that project for the NFL?
Marcel Ziul:
We worked on the project for about four months. It was huge. We had to shoot and everything. In the middle of this whole project, we liked working together so much. Joe and I were like, “oh man, now let's get a space, and let's keep this going. You're the Creative Director, I'm the EP, let's go.” He started doing business development, and we began to get a bunch of small projects. Like really small projects, but for us it was awesome.
Joe was with STATE for another year, then I think...I don't know. I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I think it was too much for him to be the owner. The responsibility and the hours. Once you become the owner of the studio, there's no more nine to six. It's nine to whatever. Joe decided to leave because he wanted to do something else. He wanted to be a farmer. He went back to Connecticut to pursue that.
Meryn Hayes:
That's awesome!
So, where does STATE’s name come from? How did y'all come up with that?
Marcel Ziul:
It's funny because we had another art director who was supposed to be with us as a partner. The three of us were all trying to bounce names around and what we came with was just bad. We came up with ridiculous names and Joe's mom, she's a consultant for Google, was like, "send me your name ideas and I'll let you know if you guys are heading to the right direction,” as far as branding and recognition go. We sent the names to her and she told us they were all terrible. Eventually, we came up with STATE, meaning the state of mind, or ‘this is your state.’ This is a place where you can come and be yourself, something like that. She liked it! Short, strong, and has good meaning behind it.
Meryn Hayes:
Awesome. In the beginning, those early days, what were some of the challenges you didn't expect to be dealing with?
Marcel Ziul:
Well, there's a funny story. We started our studio. Right? Cool. We booked a few freelancers. I was working one day and one of them came to me and said, "Hey, Marcel, can I talk to you?" All I could think about was how awesome this was. He was running a project at MY studio, and now he needs to talk to me. He comes to me, and he's like, "Hey we need toilet paper." I'm like, "Oh God, this is the shit that we have to deal with."
That was the first wake-up call. I realized that we needed to take care of the space and have things in place. Structured. Having a studio is like having a kid. I mean, I have two kids and love them to death. They are my life, but it's so hard as a parent because it's a 24-hour thing. I'm always there and always taking care of them--they're two and six. The company is the same. If I tell someone who wants to have a kid how hard it is, people will never have kids.
Marcel Ziul:
They'll be like, “Forget about this. You're not going to sleep. You're going to do this. You're going to do that. Whatever.” Having a company is the same.
Meryn Hayes:
Same way.
“…when something becomes a business, a really big business, it loses its soul.”
Marcel Ziul:
It's the same way. There are hard problems. If someone tells you beforehand, you wouldn’t want to have a studio, but I think the biggest fear for me, in the beginning, was the cash flow. We got projects and you feel good, but now you need money to produce the projects. You need to have money to finance the project, then get paid later. We have to develop a system for that. It was pretty cool, but for me, just that anxiety of not knowing was hard. The business side of it was pretty intense.
Meryn Hayes:
I have a four-and-a-half-year-old, and I can totally empathize. I think for so long, I felt like a bad mom because nobody talks about how hard it is. I was just like, “is it me?” Then I realized that nobody talks about it. It's just hard. I like that comparison, that if people talked about how hard it was to start a business or a studio, they wouldn't do it because it is hard.
Mack and Cory, when I met them, they were animators. Now they own this business. They can empathize with the whole mindset shifting from a creative to the business side and how different that is. Do you feel you just had to figure it out on your own? Or did you have resources early on that were helping you figure out the business side of things? Because that's just something that if you're not used to it, it's out of left field for a lot of creatives.
Marcel Ziul:
This is a good question because I never understood what my dad used to do with me in terms of preparing me for the world. He always had his own business and he was always teaching me things. I remember going to my dad’s work helping him at his business and I would complain about something. I'd be like, "Hey dad, did you see that thing is broken?" He would be like, "You already identified that it's broken. Why don't you go and fix it? You know the problem. How do you solve it?" He was always giving me that mindset. I used to hate when he would say that to me.
Then when I started running STATE, I realized how necessary those lessons were, because I saw all the problems and was already thinking about how to solve them. The transition from being an artist to a business owner wasn't that hard for me because I was trained for it by my parents. But if you're not ready, some give up along the way.
Marcel Ziul:
I think the biggest hurdle I had to overcome was learning when to be the creative director and when to be the owner. It's like being an animator and a designer at the same time.
Meryn Hayes:
That's so interesting and such an important mindset because again, you're trying to make the best creative possible. Taking the side of the business, which might impact what you'd say about the creative direction and focusing on the project or the client or the creative or whatever the task is. To your point, you can figure out the logistics or the cost or the extra stuff on the other side, but to focus on the creative, to make sure that it really shines through. That's great advice. How big is the studio now?
Marcel Ziul:
I think STATE has a staff of 20 to 25 now.
Meryn Hayes:
In those early days, how conscious were you of how many you wanted on staff? Was growth more so based on the creative needs for client work and projects?
Marcel Ziul:
Our biggest thing when building the studio was going back to how we started this conversation--we knew what we didn't want to be. We didn't want to be like the big studios because I believe that when something becomes a business, a really big business, it loses its soul. Most of this is because I believe that when clients look at STATE, they can see our soul. They can see how much heart we put into our projects. I always thought that if we got too big, we would lose that component, which is so important to me.
I never thought about having a studio with 25 people. Did I want to have a studio that had 50 people? Maybe not, maybe I'm fine with 25, maybe I'm fine with 20. Maybe I'm fine with 15. To me, it's all about measuring how much heart is still coming out of STATE. If we’re still producing with passion and people can see our soul, cool. If that component starts getting lost, then we're getting too big in terms of structure. But I never had that mindset of exactly how many people we needed.
Meryn Hayes:
That's great. I’ll probably steal that quote. I love that. Measuring how much heart. Sometimes people can get too caught up in the tangible aspect. I mean, I understand businesses have to be tangible for many reasons, but I love the idea of keeping on the pulse of how it’s feeling. The soul of the work that's coming out. So, you were in New York when you started and now you're back in LA. Is that right?
Marcel Ziul:
No. I never moved to New York. I was moving but then…
Meryn Hayes:
Then STATE was born, so you never left.
Marcel Ziul:
Yeah. Never did.
Meryn Hayes:
I was like, “how did you get back to LA?” But you never left.
Marcel Ziul:
Never left. We never made the move, which is something that, every time I go to New York, is the biggest frustration of my life. I never lived in the city. I think I needed that, but it's fine. Now I'm at a different point in my life. I can go to New York anytime.
Just quickly going back to that heart thing, I was talking to a friend of mine the other day. This guy is so amazing. He’s unbelievable. Every time I talk to him, he’s like, “I have three businesses. Now, I have five businesses.” He's always building. At one point, he was going through a rough time. He has a studio back home, back in Brazil. I told him this. I said, "You know what's happening with you? You were putting money ahead of everything. Your end goal is always cash. I can guarantee to you I never put money ahead of STATE, no." I said, “all you have to do is work hard, and love what you do. Do you show up excited about this business? Can people see that through your words? Through your work? Through your conversations? Yes?” If people see that, money becomes a consequence.
“when you say no to others, you're saying yes to yourself. we look at ‘no’ as a crime…those ‘nos’ got me here.”
Marcel Ziul:
Like at STATE, if you could see the amount of work that we say no to because these projects have nothing to do with what we are. They’re just going to be about the money. If it's just money, you lose the soul. We're not doing our thing. It misses the mission statement of the studio which is what’s important. A few days later, he called me. He had gotten rid of two of his businesses and is now just focusing on the studio.
Meryn Hayes:
That's great. That's something that I think is difficult for people, in general, to say no to from a business perspective. Especially for people who are just starting in their freelance career or are just starting a studio. Saying no is especially hard because of the money. Do you think that that's something that's gotten easier? Or would you say that y'all were just as willing to say “no” early on to keep up with the soul of the studio? Has it gotten any easier over time?
Marcel Ziul:
It gets easier. My wife once said something to me that was cool. She said, “when you say no to others, you're saying yes to yourself.” We look at “no” as a crime. My whole keynote at the Dash Bash should be talking about the power of “no”. How “no” got me here. Am I the most successful studio out there? No. Am I the most successful person to myself? Maybe, yes? I'm happy with me. Those “no’s” got me here.
Even the way that you take on rejection is important. For example, I've seen people when they lose pitches. They get so mad. But there's always a victory when pitching. You pitch them something and if you get a “no”, you go back and ask why you got the rejection from your client. Is it because of your idea? Was it because of a business relationship? You find so many important answers through “nos” that we don't even realize.
Meryn Hayes:
I love that. The introspection. It's so easy to get caught up in why you didn't win a pitch or why the client didn't like something. But I really appreciate the introspection of learning from why something didn’t work.
Early on as a Producer, I didn't know how to talk to clients or I didn't know the answer to a question. Just take a breath. Take a minute and figure it out. Learn from whatever the client is saying or the issue and you can move forward. We sometimes feel as if we need to say “yes” or have an answer right away. There's that service side of what we do that pushes people to overcome it or to say that they know how to do something when they don't. To your point of being introspective and taking a look at why we are doing something, that's meaningful.
Marcel Ziul:
When we do post mortem on a project--we do that a lot at STATE--after we finish a project, we get everyone together and talk about it. What did we learn? We did a project for this big client that I'm not going to disclose because, of course, they're my friends, but we did a project for this big client. I was trying to work with them for five years. Five years! Going to meetings, visiting, taking them to lunches and dinners, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, everything. We got the project. That's cool. We start the project. Good budget and everything, and then financially, the project was a disaster.
How the hell we blew up that budget, I didn't understand. Looking back, the client was confused most of the time. They didn't know what they wanted. I think they became so excited about the relationship, that when they got to work with us, they wanted to do everything at once. After we delivered the project, we came back to our post-mortem to talk about it and something that came to my mind was the price of education. We pay for education. You go to college, you pay. You want to take a class, you pay. It's the same thing in business. Sometimes you have to pay to learn from your clients.
Marcel Ziul:
So, we blew up the budget. There's a way to go about processing that. You can either look at it as you blew it up because you did the project wrong, OR you can see it as a learning experience. We were learning how to work with that particular client. Now, if we do another project with them, we know how they work. You can always see things as an absolute failure or you can analyze the negativity that came with it. There's always something that you learn through mistakes.
Meryn Hayes:
That's so true. The value of a project, even when it doesn't go right, is that you learned how to work with the other person, which is different from client to client. Sometimes when you're going through it, it's a struggle. Then you're able to step back and breathe and really look retrospectively. Do you always do post mortems with the clients?
“we pay for education. you go to college, you pay. you want to take a class, you pay. it's the same thing in business. sometimes you have to pay to learn your clients.”
Marcel Ziul:
Only sometimes with the clients. Some clients are not open to it. We always do it internally though because there's always something you're going to take away. When you're in the middle of a project, it can feel pretty awkward and uncomfortable. What I learned is that the biggest issue with our industry, there are a lot, but the biggest issue is communication.
For example, let's talk about notes. You get a note from a client that has five paragraphs. All they want to say is to make the composition a little brighter. But instead of saying that in one sentence, they write a novel to you. Communication is a huge deal. Not a lot of people know how to communicate with a few words.
Meryn Hayes:
You have to translate what they're saying.
Marcel Ziul:
Then you read it and realize that all they want is to make that object in the background red.
Meryn Hayes:
It's like…you wrote all that to say that?
Thinking about the business side of what we do is something that's not learned in school. The other thing is communication and providing feedback. I went to art school for photography and we had all kinds of critiques, but it's not inherent. You have to learn to give good feedback. That goes both for other creatives and for clients. To your point, education is so important. Sometimes it's lost on us because we live in this world. We know what feedback we're looking for, but if this is the first time that the clients have worked with us or the first time they've ever done video animation, we forget that they might not know everything. You don't know what you don't know. That education is just so crucial.
Marcel Ziul:
This is so silly. How many times you were on a call and then the client gave you a note and you're like, “Okay, cool. No worries.” Then you hang up and you're like, “I have no clue.” It happens a lot.
Meryn Hayes:
It happened like three times today.
Marcel Ziul:
One way that I learned how to make sure you and the clients are on the same level is just through honesty. They give me a note that I don't understand, I tell them I don't understand it. There was a moment a couple of weeks ago, we were on a call with this huge client. He gave me an explanation of what he wanted and then asked if I understood. I immediately said, no. I could tell that he got uncomfortable. I was uncomfortable too. We were on the same level. We talked through the notes, and he explained it to me again. I went back to the team, fixed the problem, and sent it back. He was like, “dude, awesome, approved!”
Meryn Hayes:
Perfect.
Marcel Ziul:
If I had said okay and went back to my team, I would have had no clue what to do. All you want is to be on the same level as your client so that you can all understand each other, which is hard to do. It's not easy to say I don't understand. We feel the pressure to say we got it. We're so smart. We understand everything you say. No, sometimes there is confusion too.
Meryn Hayes:
Totally. It goes back to what I was thinking earlier, the pressure of feeling you're always supposed to know the answer. You can read the client's mind, it will, to your point, save a lot of back and forth and confusion to just clear the air and be like, “I don't understand.” But it's hard for people.
Marcel Ziul:
It's hard to be vulnerable. People are afraid and that goes back to what I was saying at the beginning. It's so key to feel comfortable being vulnerable. It's fine to not have an answer. I make bad decisions too. Sometimes I don't know what I'm doing and that’s ok.
Meryn Hayes:
That's so important. That's great. Let's see. How has the last year been for y'all? Do you feel the pandemic in the last 18 months has shifted how you work?
“it's hard to be vulnerable. people are afraid…it's so key to feel comfortable being vulnerable. it's fine to not have an answer. I make bad decisions too. sometimes I don't know what I'm doing and that’s ok.”
Marcel Ziul:
Well, yes and no. For STATE, diversity has always been a big thing for us. I have always worked with people from all around the world. I don’t care if someone is in whatever country, different times. I kick off artists at midnight. No problem. If they're in Europe and I want to work with someone there, I'll do it. In that aspect, it didn't change much.
What did take a little bit of time for the team was understanding how to work from home. It took us about one to two months to understand that flow. I have to say, workflow didn't change as much because we're always busy, but I did miss seeing other people. I'm a people person. I miss that interaction. But as far as the studio, it was a smooth transition. I care about how people feel these days, because of mental health, especially Zoom. I can do three Zooms in a row, but I need a 15-minute break after. I’ll even push calls unless it's with a client.
Marcel Ziul:
We had to adapt a little bit here and there, especially with the servers. I'm sure you guys have to do the same, but we had the system already set up. It wasn't that hard. The only big thing that happened was we signed a new lease for a new space a week before the lockdown.
Meryn Hayes:
No!
Marcel Ziul:
We have a new space that no one has ever been to.
Meryn Hayes:
Oh my gosh. That's wild.
Well, we are almost out of time, but I just want to say this was awesome. I am so looking forward to your presentation and hearing everybody celebrate and clap for you. We'll grab a beer after and celebrate. Thank you so much for giving all your insights. You have such an interesting story. I know everybody at the Bash is going to be stoked to hear what you have to say.
Marcel Ziul:
I'm super excited. I have so much respect for what you guys are doing, so whatever I can support I'll be up for it.
Meryn Hayes:
Thank you. We really appreciate that.
Marcel Ziul:
Bye Meryn, bye.
Meryn Hayes:
Bye.
Takeover Tuesday with Sibel Balac
Q&A with Sibel Balac, an Illustrator based in Stuttgart, Germany. She studied Communication Design at the State Academy of Fine Arts Stuttgart, with a personal focus on illustration.
Q&A with Sibel Balac
Read time: 5min
Madison Caprara:
Hey, Sibel! Why don’t you start off by giving a little intro to yourself and your work?
Sibel Balac:
Hi! I’m a Graphic Designer and Illustrator from Germany. Together with some other creative friends, I work in a lovely studio in the heart of Stuttgart. Since I graduated last year with a degree in Communication Design, I have had the pleasure to work on several exciting editorials and commercial illustration jobs.
Madison Caprara:
Did you have an interest in illustrating from a young age, or was it something that was built over time?
Sibel Balac:
Like many of us, I started in design studies because I loved drawing as a child. I quickly realized that graphic design is much more than just drawing. Over time, I’ve learned to enjoy every part of the whole graphic design spectrum, even though I frequently catch myself trying to include illustration in my design projects. That’s why I tended to focus more and more on illustration towards the end of my studies. Besides illustration, my heart beats faster for editorial design, animation, and documentary photography.
Madison Caprara:
Amazing! Now, are you working freelance or in-house for a studio? Either way, how has your experience been?
Sibel Balac:
Right now I’m working as a Freelance Illustrator and Part-Time Graphic Design Teacher at a vocational college. Before that, I had worked in a few design studios and companies as a graphic designer. Both have their ups and downs, still, I do prefer the work as a freelancer myself. We tend to work a lot, whether freelance or in-house, but my experiences have shown me that I feel more motivated when putting time into my own little business. Another part I genuinely enjoy is being independent and flexible in creating your working hours, also the fact that you’re always learning through all of the different kinds of projects and topics you get to work on.
Madison Caprara:
You had said that you’re currently based in Stuttgart, yes? What is the creative industry like?
Sibel Balac:
Design is totally wanted in Germany. Many young people tend to work in the creative field. Still, it’s a really fast-moving industry and people tend to get burned out quickly. I do not think that it is only a “German-thing”, many in our industry tend to neglect their work-life balance easily. Hopefully, this is something we all can change in the near future.
Madison Caprara:
Looking past the burnout, how has living there affected your work for the better?
Sibel Balac:
I think living and growing up in Germany affected my work in a good way. Germany is a multi-cultural country where you easily meet other creative people from all around the world and exchange different work approaches. We also had a lot of international guests at our university for workshops or presentations, it always helps to grow watching others’ work processes. Even though I like to live and work in Germany, nowadays the internet makes it easy to connect with all kinds of people regardless of where you live. Especially as a freelancer who’s active online, and that’s amazing right?
Madison Caprara:
And when you do outsource work or projects, say with U.S.-based clients, how has your experience been?
Sibel Balac:
So far, not much different from clients from Germany. If I’m totally honest, my biggest issue is still the nervousness before every call in English since I’m not a native speaker!
Madison Caprara:
Let’s take a closer look at your work. Your illustrations are so colorful and beautiful! Is there a specific subject matter or genre that you tend to favor?
Sibel Balac:
Thanks a lot! I definitely enjoy drawing women, I love to play with their body shapes. Topic related, I’m open to everything but I’d say I especially like to deal with fashion, feminism, travel, and cultural matters.
Madison Caprara:
What is your biggest critique when it comes to the current state of the art and design industry?
Sibel Balac:
Glorifying overworking. I often get the feeling that people in our industry measure their worth depending on how much they work. Time outs are important for every human being and it’s extra important to do other things other than designing day in and out.
Madison Caprara:
How many hours a day do you think you spend drawing? Do you still have that time to draw for your own pleasure outside of commissions or client work?
Sibel Balac:
Hmm, around four to eight hours, it really depends. Since I just graduated, not even a year ago, I luckily still find some time to work on personal projects. I guess that will change within the years, but I will try to always find time for personal projects.
Madison Caprara:
You’ve sort of touched on it, but just how important do you think it is that artists take time to create for themselves?
Sibel Balac:
In my opinion, it’s the most important part of working independently. Everything starts with personal projects and if you’d like to work on jobs in a specific field you should show your potential and ideas for such projects. It’s a good way of getting closer to your dream commissions. Of course, client work is equally important if you’ve been in the business for quite a while, but from my point of view, you should always take some time to create for yourself.
Madison Caprara:
Where do you go for inspiration?
Sibel Balac:
I get a lot of my inspiration from social media, especially nowadays with the whole COVID-pandemic. Other than that I like to collect art books, visit exhibitions, and travel whenever it’s possible. To me, there’s nothing more inspiring than seeing new things, learning about other cultures, and trying new foods.
Madison Caprara:
Well, we’re about to wrap up, Sibel. Do you have any closing points you would like to share?
Sibel Balac:
Something I learned just recently myself. If you have a passion for something and want to be good at it, just do it! Work on your goals every day, even if only for half an hour. Create the work you want to do to get the jobs you aspire to have. Not every work will be your best, but see it as a process and be proud of it.
Starting a Studio with OK Motion Club
dash’s Producer, Meryn Hayes, sat down with Dash Bash speakers, Amanda Schrembeck and Linda McNeil, of OK Motion Club.
OK Motion Club is an Atlanta-based animation studio that specializes in short-form content. Their goal is to empower other women, non-binary people, and minorities within the industry.
Q&A with OK Motion Club
Read time: 15 min
Meryn Hayes:
I'm so glad that y'all are coming to speak at the festival. Before you signed on, the second y'all announced on Twitter that you were starting OK Motion Club, all of the women in our studio were like, "Oh my gosh, this is amazing." We’ve just fallen in love with the work and with you guys.
Amanda Schrembeck:
Linda was randomly like, "I feel like we should make a Twitter account." It ended up blowing up, more than most of our other channels. We were like, "maybe we should use this more."
Meryn Hayes:
Yeah, yeah. It was awesome.
Cool. Well, I will start, and I'll ask this of both of you. How did each of you get into motion design? What was your journey? How did you end up meeting? Linda, do you want to go first?
Linda McNeil:
Yeah. So I went to school for graphic design. When I graduated, I got an internship, which turned into a freelance position. It included a little bit of motion graphics. While I was working at that studio, I learned a lot more about the industry and got into it from there. That was ten years ago.
Meryn Hayes:
It’s always hard to believe how time flies.
Linda McNeil:
I know.
Amanda Schrembeck:
When I was a kid, I would mess around in PowerPoint and make animations. I downloaded Flash before it was Adobe Animate, and would just mess around with stuff. I think that was my first toe-dip into seeing what the medium could do. Then I actually went to school for printmaking, and quickly realized when I graduated there were not a ton of printmaking jobs out in the world, surprise, surprise. But I still love it dearly. I eventually ended up going into graphic design.
Through that, I don't know...one day, I was like, "I think I want to learn After Effects." So I opened the program and pretty quickly closed it because it was terrifying. But that was when I was a junior designer. I had more time at my job to mess around and learn things. I had also met Linda a few years before that. She and my husband worked at Huge together. So I feel like Linda was also a pretty big source of inspiration for me because I knew that she taught herself and I felt like I could also teach myself. So it went from there. Honestly, just curiosity and online tutorials.
Meryn Hayes:
That's awesome. Also, total aside, I went to school for photography, but I took one printmaking class. It was so much fun. I really feel like with what we do every day, everything digital and on the computer, the complete reverse of that is really tactile. It must be a really good outlet because you get the balance of both.
Amanda Schrembeck:
Yeah. I do miss it a lot. When you spend all day on the computer you do really miss just drawing, and physically printing something. Both of us have hobbies outside of doing this, and we both still have a passion for fine arts. So any way we can try and incorporate it is ideal. If it's through merch, or just having an experimental craft day, that's something we want to get into.
Meryn Hayes:
That's awesome. So, y'all had met, what was the point that you were like, "alright, we're going to start this thing together?"
Amanda Schrembeck:
I actually looked back at our messages the other day, just to...I don't know. You know when there are paths in your life where you have to make a decision that is going to drastically change your life trajectory? I did not think when we sent those messages to each other on Instagram that that was going to be one of those life-changing moments.
We followed Panimation, and they have the same goals as we do; trying to empower women and non-binary people within the industry. To showcase their skills. I think we realized there was nothing like that in Atlanta.
Linda McNeil:
We also just wanted there to be a space for us to experiment outside of work. To do animation and motion graphics more for fun. So when we first started just doing all of the OK Motion Club stuff, we were bouncing ideas off of each other, reaching out to illustrators that were local for collaboration. It really was just for fun.
Amanda Schrembeck:
Yeah. I don't think we realized it was going to turn into what it did. Obviously, I think it was in the back of our minds that it would be awesome if it became something bigger. But deep down, we just wanted it to be a space for us to share work and encourage each other to push ourselves forward. We weren't getting that at our jobs. That's still what it is for us. We want to make sure that we're always enjoying what we do, and that was something neither of us was getting in our nine to five jobs.
Meryn Hayes:
How did you initially set up time and make space to start that while you had nine to five’s and busy lives? Was it hard to get the inertia to really get started? Starting a business and branding yourselves, that's a lot to take on in addition to other work that you're doing and a life that you have.
Amanda Schrembeck:
I feel like it wasn't bad for me starting out. I was so motivated to WANT to work on something else, something that I was passionate about. So, I was excited to come home and make these projects. Also, just seeing the community’s response to them, that's a motivator too. You want to keep it going. But as time went on and it started to become more serious, probably something that we'll talk about at the festival, we realized that it could become a full-time job.
That's when it started to get really unmanageable. It was like, “okay, we got to make a website, we got to finish branding. We have to do all of the unexciting business stuff on the side of setting up an LLC, and a lot of other unknowns.” At that point, it felt like two full-time jobs. But we’re over that hump now.
Meryn Hayes:
Then what about the climate in Atlanta? Y'all said that there wasn't really a studio like this in the area. Is there a big animation, illustration, or general art presence? What's the scene there now? Did you immediately notice there was a space that needed to be filled?
Linda McNeil:
Yeah. There is a meetup in Atlanta called Ease ATL, which was a space for freelancers to get together pre-pandemic. Now it's a Slack channel, but they are about to start having talks again. We're actually doing one with them in September. But the space, there is also a studio called Awesome Inc. that is women run. It's an animation studio, but they do more classic cel frame animation. Work that you would see on Cartoon Network or Adult Swim. There really isn't a space for what we were looking to do, specifically for social content. Like a lot of the Instagram posts that we do, or any of the videos that we've posted. We really gear towards social.
Amanda Schrembeck:
Having worked at agencies, I think we have a pretty good understanding of what a lot of brands are looking for. Quick turn content and eye-catching stuff, which is what we consider as our bread and butter. There will always be a market for that in most cities, but Atlanta is growing as a city as well. It seems like it hasn't been slowing down the past year.
Meryn Hayes:
Yeah, something that we've noticed as well. We're in Raleigh, definitely smaller than Atlanta, not really a traditional place to be, like New York or LA. But, we've noticed which is being propelled further by the pandemic are these mid-market cities. Being a city in the south, it's not like we are traditionally well known for this type of work, it’s really come up in the past few years. Now, clients don't seem to care that you're not in New York or LA, and especially with Zoom, we can communicate anywhere. We can make art anywhere for anyone.
Amanda Schrembeck:
For sure. It's something good for small brands and freelancers that are trying to work with clients in bigger cities. Clients they never would have gotten the opportunity to work with because of where they’re located.
Meryn Hayes:
And it's contributing to the city itself, too. You're supporting the artists and the freelancers that are there while helping to propel the art and community further.
So it was a conscious decision when you started the studio to focus on short-form social content, is that right?
Amanda Schrembeck:
I don't know if we specifically laid it out as, “this is what we're only going to do.” It's just, I don't want to say easier, because we do really intentionally think about the short-form content as much as we do long-form. But it's kind of nice to have smaller goals of, "I'm just going to work on this 15-second animation," then we can move onto another project. You have so many ideas, it's nice to not be tied up for a month working on a single long-form project. That's why I prefer it. We also are working on longer-form stuff that taps into a different area of your creativity and things that we want to do. There is a need for both, and we enjoy both, but we tend to do short form the most.
Linda McNeil:
Yeah, I do feel there is more area for creativity with short-form content. Especially because it's a bit more...the timelines aren't that great, so you do have to be creative with how you approach everything. You can't think of it as, "okay, I have these five weeks to work on this Instagram post." It's like, no, you have a week. What can you do in a week? It's like a shotgun challenge, which is really fun sometimes.
Meryn Hayes:
You're totally right, we work on all kinds of stuff, long and short-form. But some of the projects, no matter how long they are, clients will drag their feet. Sometimes it will take months. So the idea of timeboxing for your sanity is great.
Amanda Schrembeck:
It's a nice check box sometimes, but I do agree with what Linda said about creativity. We like to experiment a lot with new methods, or textures, whatever it is. It's so easy to do that with a short-form animation. We find that even doing weird stuff like that on our Instagram feed attracts clients. They'll message us and be like, "Oh, I saw this post that you did." Usually, it’s just a random, one-off idea that we had. We're able to get work from it because people are liking the things that we're messing around with. It can pay off to experiment with short projects.
Meryn Hayes:
I was going to ask y'all how you found your initial client base when getting started. Were there referrals? Or were people randomly dming you like that?
Linda McNeil:
We both had clients that we brought into the business. Once we did announce, we got a lot of responses, which is great. It's better than launching, and everyone is like, "great job," and you don't get it from anybody.
Amanda Schrembeck:
Definitely a lot of referrals from friends at past jobs as well. Most people know that networking and staying in touch with contacts go a long, long way. We still have the potential to work with the companies that both of us worked at as well. We still have good relationships there. I think we're just kind of navigating through all of the referrals and people who have recently contacted us. At some point, we'll probably start making a list of dream brands that we want to work with and figure out how we can get in contact with them.
Meryn Hayes:
That was another question I had. Is there a...maybe it's not a dream brand, but a dream project type or style? Is there something that y'all are really hoping to work on?
Linda McNeil:
I did some work for Vans. That was kind of a dream client scenario. They were awesome to work with. Another dream would be to work with any outdoor brand, like Patagonia or REI. Just because there is so much you can do with that.
Amanda Schrembeck:
Yeah, we keep throwing out that we really want to do a music video. But then we also realize that could be a four or five-minute-long video. I think we just really like the idea of animating to music, also I feel like most music videos are such an open playground for creativity. Bands let you interpret the music how you want. So I think that's an area that we would like to explore at some point. It just has to be the right fit, and of course, the right budget, because that's unfortunately the hardest part with a lot of musicians. They usually don't have a big budget for a project like that.
Meryn Hayes:
That's awesome. We're just starting to work with a client, they’re a corporate client in tech, and we're doing a narrative piece that turns into a music video. So it's funny that you mention that. Whenever we're done with it, depending on how it turns out, I'll share it with y'all.
Amanda Schrembeck:
Okay!
But yeah, it was one of those things that our team had been talking about. They always wanted to do a music video. It was just a weird opportunity that a corporate client would present us with this option. Right now, it's really stressful because we're trying to figure out how to shoot it, and we don't have any time. Given, we're also throwing a festival in whatever it is...six weeks? Eight weeks? But that's awesome.
Like you said, going back to combining passions of print or traditional design, incorporating music as a part of the work is so important and influential as well. Earlier when you were talking about new styles or trying new inspiration for something, where do y'all feel like you typically get your inspiration or references from?
Amanda Schrembeck:
Probably like most people, social media, or just hanging out with friends. Honestly, I personally like to surround myself with other talented people. Our friend group is so incredible. They tend to inspire me the most. You see them do something, and you're like, "oh, I would love to collaborate with them, or talk with them about something." It's important to not always pull from social media. Get some real-life experiences as well.
Meryn Hayes:
Then what about the name? Where did the name come from?
Amanda Schrembeck:
I was thinking this might be kind of funny to show at the conference, but I'm pretty certain that I was in Augusta. It was Christmas. Linda and I had already been talking about forming this group, but we didn't have a name for it. I was talking to my husband and I said, "what do you think about the name OK Motion Club?" It's like a collective, which is what we were going for. We were thinking that maybe we could add more members to it at some point. We're also not denying that we're not the most incredible animators yet. We still have room to grow. Don’t get me wrong, we think we're good, but there are also other amazingly talented people out there. He was like, "yeah, I think it's cool." I texted it to Linda and she had a very similar response.
Linda McNeil:
Yeah. Our original bio said something along the lines of, "we're pretty okay at animation." Which is like...
Amanda Schrembeck:
...I think underselling ourselves a bit. But we're just being sarcastic.
Linda McNeil:
Yeah. It's also interesting that the name dives into Imposter Syndrome and how people do describe their work. Most people don't say, "yeah, this was the coolest, I'm the best at what I do." Everyone is really humble when they talk about their work, which I think women do a lot, too. Just underselling our worth.
Amanda Schrembeck:
I feel like the name alone does create a little buzz. We have heard people talk about us without knowing who we are. Just really recognizing the brand name now, which is crazy. It's weird for it to be spreading like that. So I think all of that was intentionality around the name, and even the branding itself; the little okay smiley, things like that that we want to become recognizable. At least in Atlanta, but obviously hoping that it spreads further.
Meryn Hayes:
Yeah, that's great. That was one of the things that our team had talked about. The vibe of the studio is so great. And the branding. What was that process like? Did it come naturally as y'all were starting out?
Amanda Schrembeck:
Yeah. I took a crack at the branding because I have a background as a designer. So I sent stuff to Linda, and if she liked it we rolled with it. We still want it to be collaborative though. I want her to say if she has preferences about things. But at first, we went with more of a black letter typeface. We’re both really into skate culture, that's probably another dream project focus. Skate videos or something like that. But we moved away from that. I think pink is just an iconic, feminine color. But at the same time, we still wanted it to come across as not just two typical women. We’re both sarcastic, and kind of edgy, I guess? That sounds weird to say. Tomboy-ish? Something in that vein?
Linda McNeil:
We're not going to call each other girl boss or anything like that.
Amanda Schrembeck:
We wanted it to be a mix of both of those things. More gender-neutral, I guess.
Meryn Hayes:
Yeah, that's funny. Just having just met y'all, the aesthetic and vibe of the website and your branding do match very well.
Amanda Schrembeck:
Thanks.
Meryn Hayes:
We started talking about Imposter Syndrome. Getting into that a little bit more, how have y'all handled that? Sometimes I think to myself, "why does anyone give a shit about what I think?" How have y'all handled that in the past?
Linda McNeil:
Sometimes saying what you are thinking out loud helps. A lot of times, honestly, in our Slack channel, there is a lot of back and forth of me telling Amanda, "I don't know, I think this sucks, I don't think they're going to like this." She's just like, "I think this is awesome." Just vocalizing what your Imposter Syndrome brain is trying to tell you helps. Even when we were starting this, there was a lot of fear that led to the Imposter Syndrome. It's crazy that after 10 years of experience, I'm still like, "I don't know what I'm doing."
Amanda Schrembeck:
Because both of us left jobs that we were at for five years, you really feel like you can navigate that environment with your eyes closed. But then you think, "what if I leave here and suddenly I don't know how to work with other people in the industry? Maybe I only knew that environment really well.” I think that motivates me to want to try harder. To make sure I can prove myself wrong. To prove to these people that I can deliver on something.
The first freelance job I did after quitting my agency job sent me a message after it was done. They said something like, "oh, you've been so wonderful to work with. You've been awesome, and on top of it." Just a message like that is super reassuring that you did a good job, and it makes you want to keep going. Also, another one of the freelancers who, I think he thought I worked there, said, "you seem like you're the only one who knows what you're doing." That made me feel good.
Meryn Hayes:
Getting that feedback or validation is great.
Amanda Schrembeck:
That's really what it is. It’s just getting validation. It’s crazy that you can live in your own little bubble for a while, and be like, "do I actually know what I'm doing? Or am I good at this?" You are. You probably are.
Meryn Hayes:
Yeah. Linda, what you were saying. Saying the imposter feeling out loud. I don't think I've ever felt more like an imposter than when I became a mother. I think it's because nobody ever talked about how hard it was, right? So if you don't see that, you feel like it's just you. That you're the only person going through that hard time. So one of my goals as a working mother has been to talk about it so that when other people experience it, they don't feel the same isolation.
It's the same thing. If you talk about it, someone might see you're running this great studio, and you still question whether you're good enough, or if a client is going to like your work. Having other people see that vulnerability helps them, in turn, to be more able to handle their own Imposter Syndrome.
Linda McNeil:
Totally. I think the thing that leads to the imposter syndrome is your doubt and fear of the unknown. Of not knowing what the reaction will be. Just accepting that any reaction is fine and that you'll get through it. There are so many business owners that I've talked to since we've started this that have gone through the worst. They've told us, "Once you go through the worst, you realize it's not that bad."
Meryn Hayes:
The other thing is, at some point, you realize that nobody knows what they're doing. It looks like they do, that also makes you feel like we're all just struggling together.
Linda McNeil:
Yeah, totally.
Meryn Hayes:
What about advice? This one was from one of our interns, she is graduating from SCAD next year. What would be a piece of advice you would give to young, female designers?
Amanda Schrembeck:
Are they an animator or designer? I mean, I guess it doesn't...
Meryn Hayes:
...She's a designer now. She does dabble in animation though and wants to get more into it.
Amanda Schrembeck:
What I learned the most was that unless you have a ton of amazing connections in the world with people that you've met in school, nobody is going to hand you a job. You have to work your ass off. I made a lot of fake projects to fill my portfolio with to show people I knew what I was doing. I knew that I knew what I was doing, but companies didn't. They needed something to go off of. It's true for animators too. Even if your reel looks a little slim, ask yourself, “what's missing? Do I have an explainer-type video? Do I have social content?”Just make up fake stuff. I think that almost goes further because it shows that you have the drive and motivation to want to do something on your own. You're not waiting for a project to fall in your lap.
The beginning is tough. You're trying to fill in all these gaps, it can be daunting and a lot all at once. Make a website, and market yourself, which feels kind of gross. You want people to recognize that you're good. Unfortunately, you have to put yourself out there, and really just make yourself look the way you want for companies. You also have to make sure that you're changing your stuff for different companies so that the company you're applying for feels like you genuinely are only looking at them. It's another unfortunate step that you have to take, but it goes a long way.
Meryn Hayes:
That's great. What about you, Linda?
Linda McNeil:
I agree with what Amanda was saying; putting out work that you want to do, making sure that your portfolio reflects the work that you want to be working on. There have been a few times where I've talked to recent grads that only have their school projects in their portfolio or on their site. It would include something that they're not super excited about. Don't put something on your site if you don't want to work on it. If you're not into UI animation, don't put it on your site. Also, take the first few years out of college to absorb as much as you can. You don't know what direction you're really going into until you start learning. I originally thought I wanted to go into packaging design when I graduated college.
Meryn Hayes:
That's something we talk with a lot of different people about on Clubhouse, or in doing these interviews. Something that’s so important that I've noticed when speaking to others in the industry is that when you get out of school, you have this idea of what you want to do. But in those early days, it's almost more important to figure out what you don't want to do. Very few people's paths are straight. A lot wind their way to where they are today.
I went to school for photography and realized I didn't want to move to New York City to become a freelance photographer like all my classmates. I had to completely pivot. Sometimes people think they're failures, or maybe they took a job and didn't like it. It's not a failure. It's just you pivoting your path in a different direction to help find what you want to do. That’s something that’s not talked about enough. It's not necessarily a failure, it’s finding your way to something you do want to do.
Amanda Schrembeck:
Yeah, I worked a couple of jobs right out of school that weren’t even related to the art industry. I was depressed for a while because I felt like I had just graduated and I was suddenly going to be in the career that I wanted to be in. But I used that as a motivator. “I have to get out of this. I have to do something because clearly just having a degree and a couple of school projects is not enough to get attention.” So it's the process of realizing, “okay, I need to change something.”
Meryn Hayes:
Yeah, that’s great.
One thing one of our illustrators noticed on y'all's website was you mentioned posting talks and workshops through initiatives like Ladies Wine and Design. Can y'all talk more about that?
Amanda Schrembeck:
We've actually done a few talks. I think the first one we did was with MODA.
Linda McNeil:
Yeah.
Amanda Schrembeck:
Or was there one before that? There may have been one before that, but Ladies Wine and Design is a chapter in Atlanta. There are multiple ones. A friend reached out for us to host a workshop for that. It ended up being over Zoom, because it was during the pandemic. She told us that it was the most people that had joined one of the talks. It was nice to be able to teach someone something, and also knowing that we were empowering other women and people within the industry.
We want to keep doing talks like that, and workshops, but it's hard to find time now for stuff like that when we're also trying to generate an income. People will still message us on Instagram even just for referrals of where we learned things. So if there’s any way we can share information of how we got started, those are amazing places to do it.
Meryn Hayes:
Do y'all feel like the questions that people have, or the topics that y'all hear about, have some common themes? Are people more interested in literally the work that y'all are doing, and workshopping how you make something? Or maybe how to start a studio? The business side? Or more of a smattering…?
Amanda Schrembeck:
All of it.
Meryn Hayes:
All of it?
Amanda Schrembeck:
Yeah.
Linda McNeil:
It’s definitely a mix of people in the classes. There are people who are like, "I've literally never touched animation ever. How does this even work?" So I think people are just curious about how we start on something. It's a difficult thing to try and put together because, in our heads, we've been doing this for so long. So it's asking ourselves how we distill it down for someone who has never even opened an animation program before. That can be fun to try and think about how to make it easy for someone to digest. Then we also get questions about who we are, and why we got started. Some might be considering going off on their own someday. It's a little bit of everything.
Meryn Hayes:
On that note, what type of advice would you have to other women or non-binary folks who are either taking the leap to go freelance or taking the leap to start a studio in such a straight, white, male-dominated field? Any advice on something that y'all have learned, or advice to other people as they are moving in that direction?
Linda McNeil:
The best advice is to reach out to people. Even if it's somebody that you think is only interested in illustration, or even a photographer, someone you can get creative jam time with. Honestly, when Amanda and I first met up, I wasn't even really aware she was animating. You learn so much from somebody that is also thinking the same creative thoughts you are. Having that space and awareness too, where it's outside of the white male perspective...
Amanda Schrembeck:
I would probably just say just put yourself out there. I have friends that, on Instagram, they're like, "Well, I make art. But I don't really share it." If you're serious about it, and you want people to take it seriously, you should make a separate account for it. That way you know when people follow you there or engage with you, the art is what they're there for. That was another big driver for us to start OK Motion Club. I felt like when I posted art, people didn't care about it.
Amanda Schrembeck:
I just wanted people to take it seriously. To realize that this was a real thing that I was doing. I found that it helped us a lot to separate the two. Putting yourself out there can be scary, but it can also give you validation of if what you're doing is the right thing to do.
Meryn Hayes:
Then what about advice or, I guess it's less advice, and more like what y'all's wishes would be. We've made a lot of headway in being more inclusive as an industry, it is still dominantly male, but we're making strides, especially with groups like Panimation. How do we continue that? How do we work to be more inclusive moving forward?
Amanda Schrembeck:
It sucks that we have to create these communities to showcase people's work that isn't white male. But yeah, people are having to do that to be able to shine a light on other individuals. It's on more popular platforms that white, cis, male-type work is typically being showcased. Making sure that it's a more equal mix, doing the research, and looking into people.
Panimation even had to do that as well. They weren't featuring People of Color for a really long time. It's easy to be like, "Well, there aren’t as many people online, or we can't find them." Well, look harder, or ask people, I don't know, put out a call for artists. Ask them to submit to you. I think there are other ways around it. You can't make an excuse for it.
Linda McNeil:
Yeah. There are ways to justify that kind of thinking, too, where it's like, "Well, we put it on Motionographer. No women or People of Color applied." That's not doing the work of just putting it all out there.
Amanda Schrembeck:
Are they able to find your call out?
Linda McNeil:
Really thinking along the lines of your work gets better when it's more diverse. All work gets better if it's coming from multiple viewpoints and multiple backgrounds. So, it's on all studios. Eventually, Amanda and I will have to hire, and we're aware we're two white women. So when we are hiring, we have to consider how we diversify that. I do want to mention, even when we were starting our website, we did kind of struggle with putting out us as a female animation studio, putting the name female in there. We were like, "Well, we don't really want to have to be known as an all female…”
Linda McNeil:
We don't want to identify, because, in a perfect world, we'd just be an animation studio. But we are different from most studios because we are two women.
Amanda Schrembeck:
It makes you feel a little icky. I mean, I'm proud of it. I'm definitely incredibly proud of us, but I also want people to come to us because they know we're talented and we're good at what we do. Not because they're like, "Oh, did you hear about the two women with an animation studio?" It's a strange thing to navigate. As long as we stay true to who we are, and make sure that the type of people we're working with genuinely recognize our talents, then it's someone that we'll want to start a relationship with.
Meryn Hayes:
That's really interesting. I totally get that. We shouldn't have to define ourselves. It shouldn't be a big deal, but it is because there aren't any female-owned and operated studios. My hope would be in the next few years that that's not what you're defined by, it's just the work that defines you.
Linda McNeil:
I will say the response hasn't been like, "Wow, look at these girls doing cool stuff." It's really like, "Look at this awesome studio." It's still a battle, but I do see that there has been change. There aren’t a lot of people reaching out like, "what's up, ladies?"
Meryn Hayes:
Just delete that email if you ever get it.
Let's see. What about anything, and maybe this is a boring business question, but has anything surprised you on the business end of starting the studio? Mack and Cory, dash’s co-founders, talk a lot about how they were animators, they weren't business owners. How did y'all navigate early on? Did you have help?.
Amanda Schrembeck:
We've had all of the help. But I also feel like the advice goes in one ear and out the other sometimes because it’s so much. My husband has started a couple of businesses, so he's definitely gone through it a few times. He tells me, he could literally sit me down and explain everything, and I'm just like, “I know that we need to know it, but I don't want to know it. It's not the fun part. I just want to be making things.” But it's fine, it definitely helps to have friends that have gone through it before or previous coworkers. You can pick their brain, which is incredibly helpful. But it's also tough. They don't really make it easy for you to try and figure out how to do it. Nobody can tell you how to do it the right way.
Linda McNeil:
Yeah. It's not how my brain usually works. The times we've met up to go over business stuff, I feel like I'd leave Amanda's house exhausted, because I’m just like, "Oh my god, why do I feel like I'm falling asleep?" We'd be talking for two hours about setting up the business. It's made me appreciate accountants and producers much more.
Amanda Schrembeck:
The most reassuring thing is when they say, "you can change this later on”, or, “you can figure this out later.” The most important thing is obviously bringing money into the business so sometimes we’ll circle back. We have quarterly calls with our tax guy now, where we're just like, "Please tell us that we're not..."
Linda McNeil:
“...That we're not going to get arrested.”
Amanda Schrembeck:
Yeah, getting arrested, or being criminals.
Meryn Hayes:
That's something that we have talked a lot about. You've got to think that during art school or programs that teach art, at some point, you're going to be doing something that you might need a little bit of that business background, right? If you're going freelance or starting a studio, you'll need to know that side. That’s just something that I think everyone who starts within this industry is just like, "Oh, shit, I don't know what I'm doing."
Amanda Schrembeck:
They really should make a business class specifically for artists.
Meryn Hayes:
You would think. We can make a lot of money if we went in on that because it is a huge need. But, to y'all's point, the community, and asking for help, everyone has had to figure it out. It's all about sharing the experience of, "Here is our scope. This might work for you." That common knowledge is awesome.
Cool. Well, I had one more question. Looking ahead, is there a goal that OK Motion Club is going to have X number of people, or going to be in a different city? Have y'all had any goals when you had started initially? Or is it more like, "We're just going to do this and see what happens?"
Amanda Schrembeck:
People keep asking us that, and I think we're just trying to figure out how to run this group with the two of us. We both are maybe scared, the bigger you get, the harder it is to control or make sure it has our seal of approval on everything.
Linda McNeil:
Yeah, we don't want to lose any of the integrity or the vibe of the company.
Amanda Schrembeck:
I don't know. It's our baby. How do you just give that away to other people? If we were to grow, I think it is inevitable at some point for us to eventually hire a few people. But I personally don't have a desire for it to become a massive company. At that point, it would completely change the culture from what we would want.
Linda McNeil:
Our goal right now is to have a studio space. Eventually, we would like to host events or little art shows. Just to have more of a space for people to meet up.
Amanda Schrembeck:
Yeah.
Meryn Hayes:
That's great.
Amanda Schrembeck:
It is cool, though, to be able to bring on other people that have similar backgrounds to us. People that fell into animation, and it became a passion for them. To be able to offer someone an awesome career like that, it’s an amazing thought. I hope that someday we can offer that to a few people, but it will be a very long, thought-out decision. It won't be easily made.
Meryn Hayes:
That stuff, for the most part, doesn't happen overnight. Well, speaking of meeting up, I am so excited to meet y'all in September and to hear more of your story and thoughts. Thanks for chatting with me today. This has been great. We'll talk soon.
Amanda Schrembeck and Linda McNeil:
Yeah, you too!